To not pay this childminding bill

[Ellie6578]

My one year old goes to a childminder 4 days a week whilst I'm working since October last year, I've had no issues so far.

My dd visits her dad for 2 weeks every 6 weeks, so she doesn't go to the childminder during these times (he lives up north and I'm down south) however I understand that I still have to pay for her missed days in order to secure her place (her dad pays for these 2 weeks of missed time) and that's fine as my contract states I have to pay for 4 days a week even if my dd doesn't attend.

She came back this week after only 4 days of being with her dad unlike the normal 14 days. This was because her dad had to go to Germany for a few days for work and my little girl really would not settle with his mum.

I messaged my childminder and said my dd had come home early and would she be able to have her tomorrow as normal. My childminder stated she could not have her for another 4 days as she had taken in another child for childcare which took up my daughters space. Ok I thought, my mum took time off work to look after her.

I got the invoice yesterday and I've been charged for those 4 days even though I was told my daughter couldn't go in because she had filled her space! So if I paid for it, the Childminder's earning double for half the work. Aibu not to pay for those 4 days?!

Do you like the childminder? Are you otherwise happy? I'd say to her you want to have a meeting about it....

FloatingCamel
That's what I think too. It's quite a coincidence for OP to suddenly need the place out of the blue on the one day the childminder just happened to agree to look after another child!

And she can't be declaring her correct income if she's charged the OP and obviously the other parents whose children fill up the legal amount of children she can look after

I'd also assume it was a mistake rather than assume she was greedy etc! Don't go in all guns blazing, check your contract first and then have a calm discussion with her.

As I understand it, the arrangement is full price for the time the dd isn't there because it's a regular short period the dd has away with her father, and it would be impossible for the cm to find another regular child to fill that slot. So quite reasonably the OP pays full price.

The cm should have either turned down the other child on the basis that she is earning the same even though OPs dd isn't there. Easy money! Or accepted the other child but then not invoiced the OP for those hours too. Obviously scenario 1 makes most sense from the cm's perspective- it's the same money for doing nothing, rather than the same money for having a high needs, less familiar child as a one-off.

She's being a chancer by agreeing to have the child, turning down OPs child and then billing her for those hours.

Don't see how anyone can't see that.
If the cm had actually booked annual leave from her job as a cm so was literally not there to do it, would she still expect the OP to pay full price? Because I've never known any cm do that.

Even the day nursery which I used after my cm, and which was hugely expensive, only charged full rate 51 weeks a year. It closed over Christmas week and didn't charge. I don't see how you can expect to be paid for something when you are the one saying you're not available to do the job

Definitely don't pay.

DiscoDiva70

She could have been. It's equally irrelevant. The OP understands the need to pay whether her son is there or not.

A report to HMRC seems completely over the top, spiteful and based on not a single shred of evidence.

PuppyMonkey

It isn't 'per the contract' is it though and although not a CM, my reply would be along the lines of;

'You won't see me next week and if not paid per the T&C I will be taking the matter further.'

Amazon the childminder is getting paid to look after 2 children but is only looking after 1. That means that she is getting paid to do half a job.

I wouldn't be happy to pay.

I can understand being asked to pay to hold the space while a child is away, but that should mean actually holding the space! If the provider has filled it, you should be given a refund.

That's certainly how it works at our nursery.

For all those people who say she should pay, is it not the same scenario as booking a hotel for 2 weeks but the hotel know you won't be there for the weekend so lets the room out again? You decide to cut short the weekend and turn up on the Saturday night to find your room let out again. So you cannot use it despite paying for it.

That to me seems the same thing. and no one would accept that either?

amazonEcho - OP is happy to pay when her DD is away and OP recognises that it would be difficult for CM to fill that space with another child so she happily pays for that space. BUT CM cannot expect OP to pay when she has put another child in the space that is just totally unreasonable of CM.

You're paying for a full time space, so the space should be available for you to use.

I'd approach it as the cm has made an invoicing error rather than she is trying to take advantage though.

Speaking as a childminder...

My contracts work in the same way - parents pay for their contracted hours whether present or not. If they book holiday they pay for it (with a very nominal deduction) but if they require the space after all I need notice of this. Mainly this is to avoid situations I've had in the past where parents have booked a child out for holidays and then decided last minute they would send the child after all. I've had parents turn up at my door ranting because I wasn't there to take the child in the middle of the day because we were on a trip when, as far as I knew, they were away for the week. I've also had parents turn up to drop their child during a booked holiday when I had pantomime tickets for the rest of the children - we couldn't attend because I couldn't just buy an extra ticket. Generally though, I will accommodate last minute changes of plan where I can, but reserve the right not to. It's rare that I've refused.

That said I wouldn't often use the absent childs space to accommodate another, though I have done very occasionally. If I did, I wouldn't charge twice for it. Id either cancel the extra child or not charge for the original one. That's just cheeky and unfair and as the parent I'd feel very hard done by if I ended up paying. The childminder is shortsighted in this instance - because this job is very much about having good working relationships with the families you work with.

I don't see how you can expect to be paid for something when you are the one saying you're not available to do the job

This^

Amazon - I hope I never have to do any kind of business with you, you sound like the kind of person who is happy to use very shady business practises and use a contract to back you up.

I'm pretty sure if she did take it further she be laughed out of court and probably be told to pay the ops costs. There isn't a legitimate way to insist you are paid for work you refused to do. Contract or not.

Yanbu.
She isn't out of pocket by you not paying.

YANBU I definitely would NOT pay.

Your childminder is either very stupid and doesn't realise this means she is being paid twice for the same period of time or she is well aware and is blatantly trying to rip you off!

There's two issues here - Firstly, you've let her know you do need the childcare afterall and bearing in mind you are still paying her for these 4 days I would fully expect her to be able to resume childcare. She has now let you down!

Secondly, she has found another child to take your DD's place for those 4 days therefore securing an income from these other parents to cover those 4 days. Why is she still charging you?

I would be fuming. I wouldn't pay and I would find another childminder as this would make me question her integrity.

Let's see the contract between the Op and the CM. Because it will say notice required for refund is 48 hours/7days/a month/a specific term which the Op clearly hasn't adhered to. She is liable to pay. She doesn't have to of course but as good child minders are rarer than hens teeth, she'd be best part to stick to the contract or look for a new CM, who, as I pointed out earlier, obviously doesn't have to look for for replacement business if she filled that vacancy so quickly.

Lets put it in more simple terms. If you pay a (non refundable) deposit for a wedding venue, and the wedding is called off, and the venue then rents out the hall to another wedding party, you cannot turn up and say - "I want to use this hall for 1.5 hours, that's the value of the deposit".

Child minders are so fucked over simply by working in arrears. Want a day off? Don't pay the child minder. Get made redundant? Don't pay the child minder. Got a more pressing bill? Don't pay the child minder.

Are you a childminder with a chip on your shoulder?

OP does NOT have to pay. You are deluded if you think she does.

Unless you've already spoken to her about the bill I'd also assume that she's made a mistake, maybe she made up the bill in advance and forget to change it.

However you describe it she can't expect to get paid for 2 children while only looking after one. It would make me think twice about continuing to use her, if it's not simply a mistake she could have been doing this for a while wihout you knowing.

You pay to hold the space no space no pay

^this with knobs on

Were you not pissed off that she couldn't take your child? What if your dm wasn't available? It's not good enough.

I too think that puppymonkey's way of dealing with it is a good one. Don't ask, just assume a mistake and tell her you'll be deducting that amount since she has it covered by having another child in at that time.

She'd have to have some barefaced cheek to come back at you about it!

StillDriving - you sound very bitter and it has nothing to do with the OP's issue. If she has paid for the space to be there, then it should be available to her, whether or not she uses it. She has been paying for days she hasn't used for nearly a year!

Really not sure what your point about being paid in arrears is about either - what jobs do you know of where you get paid in advance?

The answer depends on your contract, nothing else.

After nearly a year with the CM, I think it would be lovely and positive in terms of goodwill if she had said she'd refund you though.

But... you don't even know what the CM was making from the extra child!

It could be she's taken on a friend's child for free, or an 09:00-13:00 instead of your 08:00-18:00 (or whatever)

It would be perfectly reasonable if you to say in advance that you wanted to keep all spaces free and notice of being away was a courtesy and could be changed at short notice.

If the space was unavailable she shouldn't charge your for it and if the contract states otherwise it is an unfair contract term so doesn't count.
If childminders such as 60percentbanana insist that they need notice for the child to go to them whether or not they have been paid, then parents (with half a brain) just won't let them know they are going on holiday until the night before the holiday. They also won't let the childminder know how long they will be on holiday as why give them the option to give the space to another child.