AIBU to say no to my teenager becoming vegan.

[Abloodybigholeintheground]

My 15 yr old daughter has messaged me about wanting to become vegan (she is currently away staying with friends for a month). She became vegetarian a few months ago and it has been extremely hard to get her to eat a decent diet as she has always been a very fussy eater with an extremely restrictive palate. When she ate meat she was just the same but we had a few meals that she loved and ate well. She has spent a lot of the past few months refusing veggie meals I have prepared as she doesn't like them, she doesn't like most veggie substitutes (sausages etc), is not a fan of any spicy food....she has been a nightmare to feed and god knows what she eats at school! Now I don't have an issue with the ethical side of things despite the fact that we live in a rural farming community and our work roles are part of the farming community. We also keep our own animal species for eggs and meat so that we can be producing high welfare local food. But I understand environmentally and ethically if she is not happy with eating animal products. However with her very picking eating, with our incredibly busy lifestyles and two other kids to feed, our limited access to shops that stock much in the range of veggie or vegan foodstuffs, the lack of vegan food at school (and packed lunches are not an option) and the fact that she doesn't ever cook and if she doesn't eat with the family she will just have a bagel or toast, AIBU to say to her that becoming a vegan at this stage is just not workable for her or for us?

spartacus yes because he is a rabid carnivore! I haven't mentioned it to him or his brother as they will tease her no end for it-it was bad enough when she stopped eating meat! So that is another factor-kids can be total bits at this age.... We live in a rural community, many of their friends are farmers' kids, veganism is considered a joke. That's not my opinion, that is just me explaining the local opinion. Farm for meat, milk, eggs etc, eating wild meat-rabbit, pheasant, pigeon etc. It will be an uphill struggle.

Ribrab I'm afraid if she said that we would say go for it....because we rear our own meat we will try and use everything (a la Hugh Fiercely-Eatsitall)-why not eat the odd cuts rather than them go to waste.

Womb have read a couple of sites descriptions of orthorexia and the descriptions are nothing like my daughter. But thanks for heads up.

OP, please read this together

library.uniteddiversity.coop/Food/The_Vegetarian_Myth.pdf

or at least this review/summary of the book if you don’t want to read it in full

www.zoeharcombe.com/2011/08/the-vegetarian-myth-lierre-keith/

Or this thought provoking interview

Veganism isn’t healthy… it’s too reliant on carbs and legumes which aren’t great for the metabolic system or gut, it’s deficient in many vitamins and minerals which the consequences often don’t manifest for many years after. Such as vitamin A… many people can’t convert betacarotene in coloured veg into Vit A. Iron, which all young women need for their cycles and long term fertility. Zinc. Vitamin B12… many don’t have the Intrinsic Factor to absorb it from the diet… many vegan forms of it are inferior/pseudo forms of the molecule and not only poorly absorbed, but block the absorbtion of the genuine form… very long term irreversible neurological and mental health problems are the outcome. Vitamin K2… which you need to utilise calcium and Vitamin D… the only vegan source is a fermented Japanese food called natto, which is very “marmitey”… most westerners find it disgusting. Many vegans disproportionately suffer from a whole host of problems such as depression, fibro, chronic fatigue etc.

It’s also reliant on grain/soya/palm oil based agriculture for the bulk of its calories, which kills manifold more creatures than locally produced organic grassfed meat, butter, dairy, eggs etc. Plus organic horticulturally/permaculturally produced vegetables and fruits along side. With agriculture on the other hand, you have to pull down the prairies or forests, clear the land of every living thing down to the soil microorganisms and bugs. You have to spray it with a slew of -cides… pesticides, herbicides, insecticides etc. CIDE = kill… which doesn’t fit rather well with veganism!! You have to irrigate, drawing down river levels and diverting water courses… what happens to all the animals living in the rivers? Without water they die… again, not very vegan. Harvest comes and small furries die in their millions under the harvest machinery… vegan? Look into soya plantations in Argentina… large amounts of horrific disfiguring birth defects in the human population in those areas, along with ecological devastation and hectares upon hectares of sterile monocultures. Yes, much of it does go towards animal feeds, but just eat local/British grass fed meat and dairy. Palm oil is in all vegan margarine type spreads and is basically “orang-utan lard” as their habitats are being wiped out due to the production of fats for such industrialised food stuffs.

Vegans get hung up only on the death directly on their plate, and don’t look at the longer shadow of the much larger amounts of death beyond the plate. And I say that as an ex-vegan of many years who came round to the idea that veganism is neither healthy, ethical, sustainable or the best course of human subsistence for a healthy planet.

If she isn't eating a decent diet as a vegetarian then she will really struggle as a vegan. I would tell her that as a growing teenager she needs to stick to being vegetarian for now. I would insist that she proves to me that she can eat veggie food (eating everything without complaining!) for a few more months before you will even think about it.

Being Vegan is the best diet possible, but only if done properly. You can't, for example, live off of crackers.

YABU to say she cannot be Vegan. YANBU to tell her she must cook her own meals as a Vegan... although it would again be unreasonable not to do one or two meals a week for the family (assuming you cook), that are suitable for her too

Honestly OP, she may well not stick to it. Let her try it

Yes you would be unreasonable to deny her a healthy diet. The alternative being you try to force carnism on her and she simply refuses to eat. The best thing you can do is educate yourselves together and try new things together. There are plenty of vegan YouTube channels to choose from that can help with any issues, inspiration, information, or advice.

My 16 yr old turned vegetarian at 15. I fully support her but I make a lot of effort with her meals and we all eat less meat now as we've discovered lovely recipes without meat that we all enjoy like green lentil bolognaise or coconut butter bean curry. She's not keen on veggie substitutes and only has them occasionally. I wish she would eat more eggs and diary as I worry about her nutrition. She would like to be vegan and uses almond milk on cereal and I suspect that's why she won't eat eggs often. She has made one meal in 12 months!!! I have told her I'm not happy for her to become vegan until she is older as i don't think she take her diet seriously enough and she seems ok with that, plus she loves cheese!!!

Athena unfortunately the tone of your post is what puts a lot of people off veganism. "The best thing you can do is educate yourself..." comes across as very preachy and patronising. And I cannot stand the made up word "Carnism". Time for me to sign off for a while...thanks all vegans, non vegans, veggies and non veggies so far for your views....

OP, I don't understand that argument. If someone is being precious/preachy about being Vegan, why would that put someone else off being Vegan if they knew it was what's best for them?

Honestly

I dont blame her for not liking meat alternatives, i hated them! (bar one packet of sausages) they were awful!

LM sausages are awful OP, so dry. Asda'a own are gorgeous. Not sure about any other supermarkets etc

I don't drink soya/almond milk as nothing tastes anything like the real thing so prefer to go without all together

Vegan nutrition may initially seem complicated but isn't really that hard. As long as she can be persuaded to eat a reasonable variety of protein, veg, calcium (easy now non-dairy milks and yoghurt are in more shops these days!) and B12 she'll probably be okay. Yeast extract or fortified cereal / margarine / non-dairy milk is an easy way to get B12. I agree with comments above though that it's a good idea to suggest she reads up on how to have a healthy vegan diet and the consequences of nutritional deficiencies. It might make her more likely to eat a balanced diet!

There are vegan bean / lentil burger recipes that can be made in bulk, or nut roast recipes can be made in individual portions and then frozen down to give you a big stock of vegan protein to go with whatever the rest of the family is eating. Recipes for either are usually quick to prepare and very forgiving when it comes to substituting different flavourings if she doesn't like particular spices or other ingredients. Peanut butter, hummus and baked beans are vegan sources of protein too, it doesn't have to involve much cooking - you can always bore her silly with plain beans / chickpeas / nuts on the side instead of meat and tell her she'll get more variety when she does some cooking or gives you a hand in the kitchen. :)

I would tell her that as a growing teenager she needs to stick to being vegetarian for now. I would insist that she proves to me that she can eat veggie food (eating everything without complaining!) for a few more months before you will even think about it.
^^ This

DD turned vegetarian six months ago. Like MsHarry I support her choice but it is a lot of effort and she's not even faddy.
I cook meat free family meals 2 or three times a week to DH's dismay and other times I cook an alternative but similar meal for DD. She has also learned to cook and is happy to try anything. In spite of that I would be dismayed if she wanted a vegan diet.

Feeding fussy eaters is hard enough without having the extra element of catering for a vegan.

She's old enough to
A) make her own choices what to eat
B) prepare that food.

U to tell her she can't be vegan, but she is very U if she's not planning to do anything about this herself and expects you to cater.

BahHumbygge fascinating read. I'd never thought of those issues. We're omnivorous and believe in the consumption of local grass fed animals. I do intend to tell DD (she's only 18mths atm) that we should be thankful for the sacrifice if we eat a meat/fish meal. An animal died for that and it's wrong not to appreciate it. I think a return to indigenous peoples approach to animal consumption: one of reverence and appreciation is wisest. We are part of the animal kingdom and no more wrong for consuming animals than other carnivorous/omnivorous animals. It's our treatment of food animals that's the problem. If we're honest, plants are alive even without a central nervous system. There are even microbes in water. Who gets to decide that plant life (flowers have been recorded 'screaming' when cut) are less important than cows? We can't avoid consuming living creatures. So why not focus on doing so in the least cruel way possible. Anything else just doesn't make sense to me.

Caldron sausages are nice for being meat free.
Tesco do a nice meat free moussaka (btw)
Alpro soya chocolate desserts
Alpro soya hazelnut milk
Alpro soya milk and m&s do a nice version.

Being Vegan is the best diet possible based on what?

Everyone has to educate themselves about things they don't know. When my son was born with severe allergies forcing him to be a soy free vegan (as I was just vegetarian before) I had to educate myself about his nutritional needs and how to maintain a varied diet. We all learn something new everyday. You should educate yourself on the subject, If not for yourself, for your child. It's a positive thing. Every word is made up, doesn't make it any less legitimate. It's now used as a technical term. You shouldn't get angry at people for trying to help you.

Caldron sausages are nice for being meat free

Lots of them aren't vegan though...

What I meant was OP, is how is eating a cows intestine any weirder than not eating them ie being vegan?

You should let her do this. And if she doesn't like it, she learns the hard way doesn't she!

Yes you are. I am not entirely vegan but I accept animal products for what they are - she doesn't want to eat corpses and chicken periods. It's not up to you and nor should you force her. She should however give you ideas that will work for the whole family, and even cook once in a while.

but if she messaged you and said mum I want to eat pigs anuses and the breast milk of a cow, what would you say?

I'd say excellent thats exactly what we have for dinner.

There is a joke I saw on a greeting card recently " How do you know if someone is vegan ? Don't worry they'll soon tell you" Being vegan is very, very trendy at the moment so maybe she's picked up a bit on that. I can see that it will generate lots of extra work so as others have said explore the menu planning together so she can see what's involved. I quite like Thug Kitchen for ideas which can be appealing if she likes Burritos and that style if eating( and doesn't require meat replacements.) but there are plenty of others depending on her taste. I'm not vegan myself but I do find the arguments outlined on the film Cowspiracy towards vegan lifestyles quite compelling. I don't particularly think that meat eaters are healthier - particularly when you consider the constant struggle to get people to eat 5 portions of fruit & veg today and the move towards processed foods. If she's going to do this now is the time for her to step up and show you she's serious.

The OP is from a farming community, she buys locally produced products and rears chickens and other animals for meat. Having a preachy fussy vegan is going to be an almighty pain. If the OP doesn't believe that veganism is the most ethical, healthy diet (bearing in mind that this is something of an ideological position) then of course it's going to be very irritating being told it is, especially if it comes with a side helping of 'you are a bad person for making different choices' which wouldn't be at all surprising from a teenager.

Difficult one to manage OP. How about having a vegan night once a week which your dd researches and cooks with ingredients sourced locally? Then once she has been successful and has a few dishes under her belt supporting her to switch over.