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Original poster

To be sick and tired of women's concerns being silenced?

703 replies

MerchantofVenice · 20/08/2017 09:40

Obviously I wouldn't dream of doing a TAAT.

But is anyone else as furious as I am that every time people try to raise legitimate concerns about the legislation about self-identity and transgender people, the whole discussion is shut down?

There's this undertone of 'Oh, you can't say that!!!' when people state scientific facts.

And at the same time, there's this myth that 'MN is one of the only places you can actually discuss the transgender debate openly.' Like fuck it is.

Your average person on the street isn't intimately acquainted with the madness of the debate and will have no qualms about stating facts. You see it on the comments after those nonsense news articles ("Man gives birth"). When you explain the situation to novices (as I did to my husband) they are gobsmacked. They had no idea that it was somehow a hate crime to be literate in biology.

And that's part of the problem; this hushing up colludes with the idea that people are saying something controversial. The debate stays secret and the tide of common sense never comes.

So sick of it.

OP posts:
SasBel · 20/08/2017 12:29

MissDreamGirl that is really interesting, if you do not mind me asking, do you face opposition to who you are? As in, your choice of gender presentation? Your career? Places that you can socialise? As a redhead I have been bullied for my appearance, and as a woman I find that the choices that I make are, in some cases limited by men's behaviour, is yours too?

SasBel · 20/08/2017 12:30

Sorry to derail!

Catandtwodogs · 20/08/2017 12:30

I'm just trying to understand because it was a woman who attacked me.

Popchyk · 20/08/2017 12:31

So here we are, it is actually female violence that is the problem. And you silly feminists should be concentrating on sorting that out.

The problem is not male violence at all.

Nope.

It makes you wonder why some transgender people are so scared of male violence then, doesn't it? If female violence is the problem.

Isn't the solution that transgender people should just stand up to men and not be so silly and pathetic? Shouldn't transgender people just use male toilets in order to escape the threat of female violence?

There you go. I think we have a solution.

Catandtwodogs · 20/08/2017 12:31

MTF are women. That's the point of the GRA and the self identification bill.

And to say they aren't is rude and transphobic.

My friend is legally a woman and it is a breach of the equality act to say she isn't.

CosmicPineapple · 20/08/2017 12:32

I meant in comparison to male to female violence Cat to take that bit out of my whole post puts it out of context.

Gingernaut · 20/08/2017 12:33

Here you go boys and girls.

Get your calculators out.

:www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/bulletins/crimeinenglandandwales/yearendingmar2017

Remember, some 'female' sex offenders are in fact, biologically male.

CosmicPineapple · 20/08/2017 12:33

Males will never be females. Its biologically impossible Cat.

dolcezza99 · 20/08/2017 12:34

But how is female to female violence reduced by having female only spaces?

I'd be interested to know the answer to this too, because right now I can't see any logic in this feminist argument at all.

Men who falsely "identify" as trans and enter female spaces will do so regardless of whether there are trans people genuinely using them or not, so your beef is with the wrong people. Men who do not identify as trans intent on violent actions will do exactly the same. They'll just walk in and attack. I can't remember ever seeing, for example, a security guard or anyone to stop a male walking into a female changing room in a clothes shop, for example. And using a PPs argument that they couldn't overpower their male rapist as an example, why do you think a female member of staff - since 99% of female clothes store staff are also female - would be able to stop them anyway?

This argument has absolutely nothing to do with trans people, at all, and making it so just exposes your own prejudices.

CosmicPineapple · 20/08/2017 12:35

I'd be interested to know the answer to this too, because right now I can't see any logic in this feminist argument at all.

It isnt.
The bigger threat to women is male to female violence.

PricklyBall · 20/08/2017 12:37

"But how is female to female violence reduced by having female only spaces?"

It's not of course. But that's not what we're debating. We're debating men's violence. Which is definitely reduced by having women-only spaces www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28039513

Catandtwodogs · 20/08/2017 12:38

I'm still not understanding cosmic.

You can say "female to female violence is statistically less than male to male" that makes sense to me. But to use the word reduced doesn't make sense to me.

I don't understand the point you are making there - when I read what you've written the use of the word reduced doesn't make sense.

Because female to female violence is reduced by using segregated spaces means that female to female violence would be higher in a shared space. Why would this be the case?

Puffpaw · 20/08/2017 12:38

cat you don't believe in sex segregated sport as women will never be the fastest etc. By that logic you must also think we should do away with the paralympics too?

Gingernaut · 20/08/2017 12:39

There are women violent offenders.

They represent a very small proportion of the total number of violent offenders.

www.gov.uk/government/collections/women-and-the-criminal-justice-system

Puffpaw · 20/08/2017 12:40

Mtf will never biologically be women. Whatever their legal status. It is impossible

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 20/08/2017 12:40

From what I have gathered on many of these threads on MN over the last year or so is that ALL mtf trans are trying to invade your changing rooms to sexually assault you

Bollocks

Catandtwodogs · 20/08/2017 12:40

I personally think all elite sport should be done away with. I believe I have already made that position clear. And yes. That means Paralympic.

If people want to do sport for fun and for their own enjoyment they are free to crack on but I don't see th point of records and championships and fastest ever at x y z. I just don't. I have no interest and it does not impact on me and my lif in the slightest for that to be done away with.

AnotherSpartacus · 20/08/2017 12:41

My friend is legally a woman

Legally, companies can be people. But they can't actually be people, and men can't actually become women. A change in the law doesn't mean a change in objective reality. Basic biology is not transphobic.

dolcezza99 · 20/08/2017 12:41

It isnt. The bigger threat to women is male to female violence.

Yes, that's what I meant, I misread that quote. But I still don't see how male to female violence is reduced by having women only spaces. You yourself stated that you couldn't fight off your male attacker. How therefore would you expect say, a young Saturday girl in a clothes shop to fight off a male intent on entering a female only changing room for the purpose of doing harm?

Catandtwodogs · 20/08/2017 12:42

That's exactly what I mean dolce. I don't see the logic at all.

Rodhullstvaerial · 20/08/2017 12:42

*Cat, why are you focused on female violence?

Male violence is the big problem, , maybe focus on that.*

Whoa whoa whoa. Isn't the feminist argument that we can worry about more than one thing at once? (see any argument at all about concerns over pink toys/gendered clothing/page 3 and any other ridiculously petty gripe)

Maybe she's concerned about male and female violence?

Catandtwodogs · 20/08/2017 12:43

Men can become women and women can become men. The GRA says so and the equality act says that to deny that is discrimination.

CosmicPineapple · 20/08/2017 12:43

Cat

Cosmic you can say the same about women. They are also violent and commit sex crimes

^They do however at a ratio that is much much less than male to female violence. So the risk of female to female violence is significantly reduced. Allowing males in to that space will significantly increase violence against women.
Why would you want or support more violence towards females got?^

I see that my use of the word reduced is confusing.
What i meant by it was female to female violence is less than male to female.

Hope that clears it up Cat

DJBaggySmalls · 20/08/2017 12:43

Catandtwodogs
You seem to be confused. A GRC means that someone has committed to living as the opposite sex. They dont have to have any surgery or take any hormones. but have lived for 2 years in their new identity.
New gender self ID rules means anyone can download a form, sign it and get the same rights.

Can any trans activists explain how sexual predators will not make use of gender self ID, or identify as gender fluid?
How is it not a breach of the current Equality Act?
11 sex offenders from HMP Littlehey are transitioning to get into a womens prison
www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jailhouse-frock-11-inmates-one-10896312

SmileEachDay · 20/08/2017 12:43

A question:

To those posters who cannot see the issue with opening up all female only spaces to men (which is what the proposed new legislation will do):

Rape suites
Mental health wards
Sexual abuse counselling (both 1:1 and group)

These are all currently able to offer female only spaces for women who have suffered trauma, most often at the hands of men.

Should the women using those spaces be required to share them with men, even if it stops some of them accessing the support they need?