To be sick and tired of women's concerns being silenced?

[MerchantofVenice]

Obviously I wouldn't dream of doing a TAAT.

But is anyone else as furious as I am that every time people try to raise legitimate concerns about the legislation about self-identity and transgender people, the whole discussion is shut down?

There's this undertone of 'Oh, you can't say that!!!' when people state scientific facts.

And at the same time, there's this myth that 'MN is one of the only places you can actually discuss the transgender debate openly.' Like fuck it is.

Your average person on the street isn't intimately acquainted with the madness of the debate and will have no qualms about stating facts. You see it on the comments after those nonsense news articles ("Man gives birth"). When you explain the situation to novices (as I did to my husband) they are gobsmacked. They had no idea that it was somehow a hate crime to be literate in biology.

And that's part of the problem; this hushing up colludes with the idea that people are saying something controversial. The debate stays secret and the tide of common sense never comes.

So sick of it.

At the moment women can challenge men who enter their safe spaces, they can report them and be taken seriously. In the brave new world it will be the young girl objecting that will be in trouble.

That's exactly what I mean dolce. I don't see the logic at all.

That's because there is none. This entire argument is based on "all biological men are potential/probably attackers". It's nonsense.

"From what I have gathered on many of these threads on MN over the last year or so is that ALL mtf trans are trying to invade your changing rooms to sexually assault you"

No, no-one has ever said that. What we have said is that a law (self-identification in place of gate-keeping by psychologists) which allows for no legal distinction to be made between genuine trans people and opportunistic male sex-offenders who fancy a bit of cross dressing to give a ready-made defence to their commission of the crimes of indecent exposure and voyeurism, is a pretty crap law and shouldn't be put on the statute books. Interestingly, I've seen quite a few trans posters agree with that summing up - they too feel that a law which means that they get lumped in (completely wrongly) with the Lisa Hauxwells of this world is bad for them as trans people as well as for women.

DJ stalls. I know about the new bill. I'm not confused but than you for the explanation.

Thank you cosmic. That does explain it.

I still don't get the logic, however I appreciate your acknowledgement that your language was unclear. It is so important to use the right language i this debate, I'm sure you'll agree.

What about my young relative who is suffering from PTSD due to her horrific rapes at the hands of a group of men which took place over several years and who sometimes has panic attacks so badly she has to be sedated? Can the likes of Cat and Dolce convince her that because they have never had a reason to fear men that her fear is silly, irrational and misplaced because not all men are bad? Are her feelings, e.g. her fear of men in situations where she feels vulnerable (e.g. when getting changed or going to the loo) less important than a MTF transsexual's feelings about wanting to be a woman or feeling they are a woman more important. If so, why is that? Why do her feelings not deserve priority? Is her risk of sexual assault by doing away with women-only spaces less important than a MTF transsexual's risk of assault if we don't? Is this really the only answer? What about gender neutral spaces?

cat that is not what you said previously.
I must say you sound very self-centred, and self absorbed, very comfortable with putting your needs and priorities first, almost as if you could be male...

And if people think they are going to get beat at a particular sport or thy aren't good enough to be picked or a team, really honestly I don't care

I have zero interest in sport. Don't watch it. Don't play it and really really don't see what all the fuss is about

I have zero interest in sport , never play or watch it. I am capable of understanding not everyone likes the same thing.

I am also capable of understanding that generally men have greater physical strength and powers of endurance than men.

To give a very simple example Venus and Serena Williams are probably the strongest female tennis players we have ever seen. They would not be able to beat the top ranking male players "top ranking" being generally taken to be any player seeded around 200 or higher.

Do you also advocate male-only spaces in those situations, Smile? I would hope that you wouldn't advocate one without the other, if you're so hell-bent on segregation.

Dolce, how would you differentiate between real transgender people and "men who falsely identify as trans" as you call them? Who gets to decide that? And how does a changing room assistant know which is which?

Remember that the majority of people who say they identify as trans have no surgery whatsoever.

What is real trans and what is false trans? Be interested in how you define it.

😂 I'm not a man.

I'm an overweight middle aged woman.

I can't answer for Smile, but yes, men-only counselling for male survivors of sexual violence and domestic violence is a good thing (see, for instance the work done by Mankind).

However, it's worth remembering that the majority of male victims of sexual violence will in fact have been abused by other men.

Men can become women and women can become men.

Okay, if this is true, then what is a man? What is a woman? Is there a definition other than 'person who has the legal state of man/woman' in which case it's just semantics with no resemblance to actual reality?

My point, Popchyk, is that your beef is with the wrong people. (Not you specifically, you general).

Do you also advocate male-only spaces in those situations, Smile? I would hope that you wouldn't advocate one without the other, if you're so hell-bent on segregation.

Absolutely. If men want to fight for exclusive spaces they should absolutely should - in terms of violent trauma, they don't usually want this because the vast majority of violent crime in which men are victims is perpetrated by men.

What about the men is a common response to my question.

It doesn't answer it though.

Barbados my opinion is that the best solution for everyone is private cublicles.

That would enable your relative to feel comfortable getting changed I hope?

Trauma therapy groups are often single sex, and they should be. Women can empathise with men who have male cancers or who have been raped, but I dont think we'd insist they have to talk to us about it.

Once a biological man, in any guise, is given the legal entitlement of accessing woman only spaces, being allowed to lay hands on women for non-medical purposes and dodge the statistics of male offender criminal statistics, that's it.

Any man can follow them.

That's what we're scared of.

Those transgender people, who claim that the current legal hoops they have to jump through are too tough are wrong.

They're not tough enough.

Self-identifying is not enough.

There should be a case by case basis.

So that any male sex offender brought before a court for child porn will be reported as male. Not female. Like Kira Leverton.

Then you are extremely fortunate never to have experienced male violence, nor had any close female family or friends that have experienced it. If you had I think your views would be different. You are very very lucky, or male.

*MTF are women. That's the point of the GRA and the self identification bill.

And to say they aren't is rude and transphobic.

My friend is legally a woman and it is a breach of the equality act to say she isn't.*

Well I'm sorry that reality is rude and transphobic.

If someone wants to enter a changing room to assault someone at the moment and that changing room is female only, then what's to stop them putting in a dress and some make up and doing it anyway?

Can someone show me the law that says that current changing spaces must be segregated ?

My last post was to cat btw

I've experienced female violence. That's my reality.

But I'm guessing that doesn't fit here.

I was in the female toilet. I am a female. It was my "safe space" and I was assaulted.

See, there's my point. You assume that people with an opposing opinion must not ever have suffered an attack (fair enough) or that they must be male.

You do NOT speak for all women. And aside from that being a staggeringly poor argument ("oh, you must be a bloke then"), a comment like that suggests that you think you do. I am female, I have a different opinion, and it is just as valid as yours. Do not presume to speak for me, or others who do not hold your warped opinion that all men and trans women are a danger to women.

MissDreamGirl - your post slipped by. It won't be read here. But it might get more traction if posted under the Feminist Board?

Puff. As I have explained. I am female. Born female. With a vagina and not a penis. And I was assaulted in the female toilets.

I find your dismissing of my experience rather disconcerting and minimising. Why do you feel the need to do that?