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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To be sick and tired of women's concerns being silenced?

703 replies

MerchantofVenice · 20/08/2017 09:40

Obviously I wouldn't dream of doing a TAAT.

But is anyone else as furious as I am that every time people try to raise legitimate concerns about the legislation about self-identity and transgender people, the whole discussion is shut down?

There's this undertone of 'Oh, you can't say that!!!' when people state scientific facts.

And at the same time, there's this myth that 'MN is one of the only places you can actually discuss the transgender debate openly.' Like fuck it is.

Your average person on the street isn't intimately acquainted with the madness of the debate and will have no qualms about stating facts. You see it on the comments after those nonsense news articles ("Man gives birth"). When you explain the situation to novices (as I did to my husband) they are gobsmacked. They had no idea that it was somehow a hate crime to be literate in biology.

And that's part of the problem; this hushing up colludes with the idea that people are saying something controversial. The debate stays secret and the tide of common sense never comes.

So sick of it.

OP posts:
Sallystyle · 20/08/2017 18:08

You know, I'm not too concerned about sharing a bathroom with males myself. I don't love the idea but I'm more worried for my young daughters and of course other young girls and any women it bothers.

I don't want my daughters to ever have to feel uncomfortable about changing after swimming etc in front of a Trans 'woman' with a penis. They have the option in some pools to go into a cubicle but girls and women should not have to do that just to make themselves feel more safe and comfortable. Why do we have to be the ones to go out of our way or feel uncomfortable to please men?

It's not just about the chance of being sexually assaulted. My developing daughter would be mortified to be changing and then see a man walk into the changing room. She shouldn't have to suck it up or get used to it or hide away in a cubicle so men can use our female spaces.

They are our spaces and our rights to have female only spaces should not be trampled over to please other males. And that is what they are. They are males, no matter how they feel. I don't want women to have to just suck it up or go out of their way to feel safer in the name of political correctness. We have had to suck up so much shit for so long and we are going backwards.

Changing rooms and the like is just a very small part of what is a massive problem though. I do support safer spaces for trans people, but not at the expense of females. I don't agree you can feel like the opposite sex but whatever. I certainly don't agree that it should be easy to identify as the opposite sex without any input from medical professionals etc because that is open to so much abuse and it's also where madness lies.

I am, of course, more concerned about sharing wards with men, rape crisis centres and so on. And of course the whole ridiculous concept of feeling like a certain gender. Gender is made up bullshit after all and something we should be trying to break away from.

Ereshkigal · 20/08/2017 18:12

They are our spaces and our rights to have female only spaces should not be trampled over to please other males. And that is what they are. They are males, no matter how they feel. I don't want women to have to just suck it up or go out of their way to feel safer in the name of political correctness. We have had to suck up so much shit for so long and we are going backwards.

Absolutely this.

Datun · 20/08/2017 18:14

IAmEatingACurry

You're always the kiss of death to these threads Grin

LineysRun · 20/08/2017 18:16

They had no idea that it was somehow a hate crime to be literate in biology.

Yy, OP

I hope some actual biologists will soon feel able to say this publicly.

Datun · 20/08/2017 18:20

For everyone who thinks women are being ridiculous over this, what do you say to curry? A genuine transwoman who is negatively affected by these upcoming laws.

PricklyBall · 20/08/2017 18:32

Nothing to add other than thanks Curry - your posts as always are so helpful.

CosmicPineapple · 20/08/2017 18:36

All joking aside about curry killing threads....why have the men should be allowed/you are bigots/transhate/ posters suddenly gone?

FerretsAreFeminists · 20/08/2017 18:38

A transwoman showed up and disagreed with them.

Datun · 20/08/2017 18:39

Because curry is right.

No one's got the nerve to argue with a transwoman that she is completely wrong.

FerretsAreFeminists · 20/08/2017 18:42

And of course she is right.

People can call us transphobic but they can't exactly call her transphobic.

misscockerspaniel · 20/08/2017 18:44

I cannot understand how women's rights (eg; with regard to changing rooms, sport, etc etc) can be steamrollered by a tiny minority. We make up approx. 50% of the population yet politicians from all the main parties seem to be bending over backwards to pander to a handful of vocal activists. Would they be so willing to kowtow if it was men's rights that were at stake?

SmileEachDay · 20/08/2017 18:48

It is a little irritating that all the many shriekers of "RADFEM BIYATCH LOSERS" bugger off when faced with a transwomen.

It's like listening to women is just too much.

No disrespect intended Curry - you also write and argue sense and you're right. You aren't more right than the many women who have presented a case. And yet...you are listened to.

I'm not even sure what that means. 🤔

Papafran · 20/08/2017 18:49

People can call us transphobic but they can't exactly call her transphobic

Well, they could... Women can be misogynists, gay people can be homophobic and trans people can be transphobic. One person cannot claim to speak for everyone. It just so happens that curry's view chimes with what many others are posting.

DamnDeDoubtanceIsSpartacus · 20/08/2017 18:51

.why have the men should be allowed/you are bigots/transhate/ posters suddenly gone?

They never stick around and actually debate, just play the same game. Women are hysterical blah blah blah. There will probably be the odd poster turn up to tell us how evil we are for standing up for women and girls but hey ho.

Has everyone written to their mp about this?

Datun · 20/08/2017 18:51

dolcezza99
gotspoiler
Catandtwodogs

And anyone else.

Serious question. Does Currys post have any impact, at all, on the way you feel about this?

Instead of getting cross, heated, defensive can you address what she says in the context of what others on here have said?

curry feels that her very transness (for want of a better word) is being denied.

Pretending that curry is not trans means that what she needs, wants, is being ignored.

FerretsAreFeminists · 20/08/2017 18:52

Well I suppose they could. I suppose it's possible that internalized transphobia exists.

However what they cannot do is tell curry that she has no idea what it's like to be trans.

SmileEachDay · 20/08/2017 18:52

I have Dame - the response was disappointing

SummerflowerXx · 20/08/2017 18:54

Curry do. you mind if I ask you a question?

Your post is articulate and helpful, but you say being trans means a lifetime of surgery and hormones. Why? I mean, if there was acceptance of a third sex, so to speak, with gender neutral bathrooms and spaces, why would trans people have to have a lifetime of surgery and hormones and 'pass' as the other sex?

I will be honest and say I feel uncomfortable with obviously transwomen. I feel like they are appropriating something of me, whilst never having the same experiences as me, and I think the access to single sex spaces and TRA arguments shape that feeling.

Whereas if there was an understanding of trans as trans, which did not impinge on women as women, then I think my discomfort would disappear.

As it stands, and I apologise if I am being insensitive, I don't care if someone is trans* or cross-dressing, but I do care about the possibility of a penis-bearer in the public ladies' bathrooms and I do care about losing the language to describe female biological experience.

Datun · 20/08/2017 18:54

Has everyone written to their mp about this?

Yes. And more and more people are.

DamnDeDoubtanceIsSpartacus · 20/08/2017 18:54

I had my reply last week. First paragraph was about making progress with trans rights, second that they took on board my concerns and would share them with fellow mp's. they didn't commit either way but it wasn't a smack down.

Puffpaw · 20/08/2017 18:54

smile I thought that too. Curry is right, but why are they listened too, when they make the same arguments women do, but women aren't.
Don't suppose we will see dolce got or cat anymore.

SummerflowerXx · 20/08/2017 18:55

I mean gender neutral bathrooms etc in addition to male and female bathrooms, not as the only options.

Puffpaw · 20/08/2017 18:56

Yes I have written to my mp, he just ignores me. But I doubt he'd support the gra, not because he cares about women though.

SmileEachDay · 20/08/2017 18:57

Dame my MP used the phrase cis women's concerns.

Once I'd stopped frothing at the mouth, I crafted a response explaining why I thought that was not appropriate.

Papafran · 20/08/2017 18:59

Well, I cannot answer on behalf of the other posters and my viewpoint is more moderate than theirs in any event. I believe that there should be balancing of rights rather than a return to the pre-Gender Recognition Act position where a person was simply know by their birth sex.

I am not sure all trans people hold the same view as curry so it is risky to say that this represents the trans position. I know someone who is a trans man. He wishes to be known as a man and believes that he has always been a man. He is not an activist in any sense- he just wishes to live his life quietly, as a man and have that gender recognised. I am not sure whether he would say 'I am not a man, I am a trans man'. I guess he may be forced to concede that that is the case, but I am not sure he would feel that his 'trans status is being denied'.