To be sick and tired of women's concerns being silenced?

[MerchantofVenice]

Obviously I wouldn't dream of doing a TAAT.

But is anyone else as furious as I am that every time people try to raise legitimate concerns about the legislation about self-identity and transgender people, the whole discussion is shut down?

There's this undertone of 'Oh, you can't say that!!!' when people state scientific facts.

And at the same time, there's this myth that 'MN is one of the only places you can actually discuss the transgender debate openly.' Like fuck it is.

Your average person on the street isn't intimately acquainted with the madness of the debate and will have no qualms about stating facts. You see it on the comments after those nonsense news articles ("Man gives birth"). When you explain the situation to novices (as I did to my husband) they are gobsmacked. They had no idea that it was somehow a hate crime to be literate in biology.

And that's part of the problem; this hushing up colludes with the idea that people are saying something controversial. The debate stays secret and the tide of common sense never comes.

So sick of it.

Datun every single transman and transwoman I've come across, both in real life and online, who just wanted to get on with their lives quietly without negatively impacting other people has hated the idea of not being thought of as being trans. None of them wanted to be accepted as men or women; they wanted to be accepted as transmen and transwomen.

The one transwoman who I am quite close to IRL finds the idea of a self ID bill quite sickening and hurtful because she also thinks it's erasure, is open to abuse and just simply makes a mockery of everything she's been through.

Whereas if there was an understanding of trans as trans, which did not impinge on women as women, then I think my discomfort would disappear.

Same here. If there was an understanding that transwomen are natal born men who want to identify as women, I would have a little problem.

There certainly are many transwomen like curry.

God knows, the last people to inflict pain on a minority, are feminists.

But there is a line. And transactivists have crossed it, massively.

They are a disgrace to men, women and humans in general.

So sympathy for men with gender dysphoria wears thin. It's not currys fault. And I commend her attempts to disassociate herself from it.

But I think she is losing.

Papafran but lots of them do feel like that and their feelings on the matter are aren't lesser than those who disagree with them.

Papa, trans men tend not to be pushy, they don't harass gay men into sexual relationships. Really odd that...

every single transman and transwoman I've come across, both in real life and online, who just wanted to get on with their lives quietly without negatively impacting other people has hated the idea of not being thought of as being trans. None of them wanted to be accepted as men or women; they wanted to be accepted as transmen and transwomen

That is interesting. I was just basing what I said on one person. Maybe the problem then is that we only recognise male and female. If we have trans as a third (or fourth, with intersex) then that could be helpful. I am not sure that is what the trans activists want though. Are they not campaigning to be known as 'real women'?

Thank you to all that replied to my question.

I thought as much.

I dont think curry speaks for all transwomen but curry does give a transwomens pov, insight and experience.

If we do not listen to women and we do not listen to transwomen then who are we actually listening to when it comes down to the erosion of female spaces and female atonomy? The only group left is men.....

Are they not campaigning to be known as 'real women'?

Yes they are.

Trans activists don't want separate toilets and changing rooms. They want to be able to use womens toilets and to hell with any woman who doesn't like that.

Papa, trans men tend not to be pushy, they don't harass gay men into sexual relationships. Really odd that

Well, yes... Anyone listening to the debate from the trans community would almost think that there is no such thing as trans men, only trans women. And I think that is the other problem- there seem to be an awful lot of men who want to be women and define what that means. Not so much vice versa.

I agree Datun.

Trans activists want to stop women talking about women's issues, they want to take everything we have away. Our spaces, our language, the right to meet within a same sex group.

I see Michfest is no more, after 40 years. That is so awful, we are watching women being erased and rebranded by men.

Papa, transwomen behave like men and transmen behave like women.

This was an opportunity to expand what it means to be men and women, to get rid of sex stereotypes. Instead we have reduced both sexes to stereotypes which angers me.

Curry

Thank for your input. It's reassuring to hear that our concerns are valid & we are not all bigots.

As another pp said we are 50% of the population, we are not a minority. Why are women's rights always below everyone's else's?

I have a little question to those who are saying "but sex offender men access these spaces anyway, they don't let a little thing like the law stop them" - how are these men accessing women's prisons willy nilly?

I'm relatively happy with passports being changed to reflect 'current reality' for anti discrimination purposes, but birth certificates shouldn't be. Neither should criminal records (or stats) or health records (or stats). Did you know btw that following a GRC, the old medical records are locked and new ones set up?

Cat, I imagine you aren't still following the thread, but if you are, I'd recommend you have a look into the uncomfortable correlation between transpeople and asd.

Never heard of Mitchfest but just googled it. FFS!

The fact that all the 'you're just a bunch of transphobes/bigots/haters' shouters flounce whenever curry appears on a thread has been pointed out before but I really do think on this thread it really is very apparent.

Just looking through this thread I can see that curry made her first post at 17:35:21 however less than 10 minutes prior to that there were still posters accusing us of being hysterical/bigots/transphobes/etc and that was following on from a thread full of people accusing us of the same thing. However as soon as curry posts and makes it clear she's a transwoman all of the "you evil nasty hysterical TERF's!" suddenly just stop.

Very interesting.

Well there you have it. Trans is not a single entity. And before anyone says neither are women, that's not what I mean.

Men and women transition for entirely different reasons.

Leaving women aside for now, men transition for two reasons. Either because they have gender dysphoria or because they are autogynephilic (with a possible slight crossover between the two).

Men who are attracted to men who have gender dysphoria are not the problem. They aren't attracted to women, they do not get off on women's intimate spaces, etc.

Men who are AGP, are the problem. A massive problem. And they are now the majority.

They are dominating, narcissistic, porn addicted and entitled. We have all met men like this. But now this type of man, (who is also autogynephilic) can realise his fantasy by accessing women's spaces.

There is a division, which these men are exploiting.

It's such a shame that the trans-activism movement has actually damaged the position of those with gender dysphoria. Ten years ago, they represented a very small minority of people who simply wanted to be recognised for what they believed to be their true selves.

Maybe it will take something like trans-racialism for people to realise the issues. If I with my white privilege rock up to a black activist group and demand to be the group leader because I am a 'true black', there would probably be uproar. And if I said race has nothing to do with skin colour, it's about the fact that I feel black....

OK, I do get it now, but it's very hard to air these views in public. Also, I do still want protection for those with genuine gender dysphoria. I definitely don't want Danielle living in a women's shelter.

@FerretsAreFeminists

Its very odd

Sorry just realised her first post on this thread was at 17:14:22 but she doesn't point out that she's trans in that post. Her first post which she makes it clear that she's trans was actually her second one at 17:35:21 and it's after that that the shouters suddenly go quiet.

Ceto if you had ever worked with sex offenders then you would understand they will go to extraordinary lengths to gain access to victims

Unless you know precisely what the offences concerned are, you really cannot generalise like that.

Some fairly important reasoning, sense and logic left out of your interpretation of a situation where 11 violent sex offending men in one prison all decide they are actually women.

Where does the report say they are violent?

Where does the report say they are violent?

Well, Ceto if they are sex offenders, they are violent. Sexual violence is also violence....

Ok, so I've only made it to page 7 so far and am feeling mildly nausaeted by the opinions of one poster who thinks that, because she is personally uninterested on sport, sport Does Not Matter.

So that was cheering.

I will persevere once I've got the kids to bed.

What strikes me most is the impoliteness and sheer lack of compassion that some are showing.

This thread was prompted by the fact that women's concerns are being silenced. If you don't share those concerns - well, err, great, I suppose. Crack on. Things are going your way anyway so, um, well done.

I wasn't saying all women share these identical concerns. I was saying that a significant number of women have these concerns. That is enough to make them women's concerns, isn't it?

Some of us are very, very concerned. If you're not, it's entirely possible that you haven't fully appreciated the situation. Or that you hate women. Or that you simply don't believe statistics. Or, like the charming poster I cited, you simply couldn't give a shit. Fine. Carry on.

But stop trying to silence our concerns.

Ceto the GI reform legislation is due to be debated in the autumn.

So, it doesn't exist and in fact there is no Bill or proposed legislation in place. Isn't it a trifle premature to start spreading panic about it?

Papafran

Exactly. It shouldn't be, what about the women on one hand and what about the trans on the other.

Transactivists have made it so.

In what way could sex offending men not be violent?