To be sick and tired of women's concerns being silenced?

[MerchantofVenice]

Obviously I wouldn't dream of doing a TAAT.

But is anyone else as furious as I am that every time people try to raise legitimate concerns about the legislation about self-identity and transgender people, the whole discussion is shut down?

There's this undertone of 'Oh, you can't say that!!!' when people state scientific facts.

And at the same time, there's this myth that 'MN is one of the only places you can actually discuss the transgender debate openly.' Like fuck it is.

Your average person on the street isn't intimately acquainted with the madness of the debate and will have no qualms about stating facts. You see it on the comments after those nonsense news articles ("Man gives birth"). When you explain the situation to novices (as I did to my husband) they are gobsmacked. They had no idea that it was somehow a hate crime to be literate in biology.

And that's part of the problem; this hushing up colludes with the idea that people are saying something controversial. The debate stays secret and the tide of common sense never comes.

So sick of it.

Until there is one in place and we know its terms, isn't it somewhat alarmist to assume there will no safeguards or exceptions in place?

No, I don't think it is. Not after the Canadian one, etc. That is not the way it's moving.

There seems to be little willingness to listen to women or our concerns or consult us, and much silencing.

Yes, maybe I am a transphobe....

Oh and I just watched a youtube video entitled 'a tour of my room at the shelter' which was 'enlightening'. I don't know what to say really. Are we sure Danielle is not a troll who is actually working to set back trans-rights?

As for 'suck my dick', no words really. I do sort of want to say 'at least TRY' when I see Danielle's beard and moustache. I really think it's doing a disservice to those with genuine gender dysphoria who go through hell to transition.

Ceto

After Maria Miller's shelved private members bill last year, I think most people thought it was dead in the water. But they are readdressing the the issue in the autumn. With a push for self identification. You only have to look at Canada, and many states in the US, to see how that's gone down. Corbyn is behind it and so is May.

They have sent out a consultation for the general public to respond to, but if you identify as anything other than LGBT or non binary, it throws you off and you can't complete it.

Women are not being asked. Despite them being the demographic who is most affected.

Papa I'm pretty sure Muscato is a troll. But here's the thing - even if Muscato is a troll, they now enjoy exactly the same legal rights as a genuine trans person - because the law where they live says the only test of someone's trans status is that they are prepared to utter the words "I identify as a woman."

And that's precisely what I have a beef with. I genuinely want people who are really trans to live and enjoy their lives free from harrassment, able to access jobs, housing, services without encountering prejudice. I do not want people like Muscato taking the piss out of the lives of people who really are trans, any more than I want Muscato pissing all over women's rights. But if you frame laws in terms of self-identification, you are stuck with Muscato in a women's shelter, whatever their motivation is.

I don't think Muscato is a troll. Any more than Alex Drummond, who calls himself gay because he in a relationship with a woman.

Which is why none of this makes sense. Clothes, facial hair, do not make anyone a man or a woman. If you think a man can be a woman, there is no earthly reason why he should have to dress like one. Unless you think it is clothes that make someone male or female.

What I care about is not the feeeelz of a small number of males who want to be considered female but the safety concerns of girls and women, sadly based on terrifying experiences many of us have lived through more than once in our lives.

I fully agree with this. There are far more woman and girls out there that need the kind of protection a female/ make only space can provide.
I don't get the whole transgender issues anyway. Physiologically you are either male or female, that's your primary identifier. Humans are conditioned to identify a person firstly by their sex. Everything else is secondary...

PricklyBall yes, I agree. I feel the current law strikes a fair balance whereby you have to be medically diagnosed as having gender dysphoria and be two years into transition before applying for a GRC. I do not support the self-identification proposals.

I don't agree with the Stonewall position that it is unnecessary medical intrusion into the lives of trans people. There are many other groups e.g. women, those with a disability, those claiming benefits, who are subject to medical intrusion. Changing gender is a fundamental thing and cannot be done lightly.

I know Jezza might be behind it, but we do still have a Tory majority in government (never thought I would say this as a positive). Not sure I see them voting for this, although Justine Greening is apparently in favour.

I find it very very sad that so many people are so needlessly petrified of perfectly normal people
I'm not 'petrified' of anyone. I just have boundaries concerning my own body, one of which is to not get undressed in front of random males. Whether they are genuinely gender dysphoric, or autogynephilic, or just 'trying on a dress' is irrelevant to me.
I'm not going to be gaslighted into breaking my boundaries. From now on I will only use facilities that have secure locking cubicles. I suspect other women will do the same (as a previous poster stated her Muslim friend has already stopped using her gym) and businesses will eventually realise they are losing customers and install individual cubicles.
It's already bad enough that we have to worry about being upskirted or just generally harrassed as we go about our daily business. Now we even have to worry about getting changed in women's changing rooms.

Tory majority in government

Sorry, in Parliament I mean

I think he's on a fucking wind up of epic proportions too, but people are actually cheering this prick on saying he's a real woman, he rocks, he's more female than a real woman etc all while inviting us, because some females have penises according to him, to suck his dick.

What do you care about?

What do I care about? I care about not being spoken for by women who, by their own admission, base their opinion solely on their own life experiences, as you just admitted. And you people had the nerve to call cat self centred when talking about her assault at the hands of a woman?

Your views on transgender people are based on nothing more than your experiences at the hand of men. And that's wrong, and biased, and self-centred, and bigoted.

For you, no, perhaps not. That previous poster specifically said she didn't want to be "looked at", hence why I queried it. She also refused to answer my question when I asked why it was different.

Yes, that's me. I don't want to be looked at by men, so what. And I refused to answer your question because it was a stupid arrogant question. I don't, and never will have conversations about men's rights to look at women or children, nor will I have idiotic conversations about lesbians.

I find your support for men to violate and intrude on non consenting women pretty fucking worrying.

It's almost as though any attempt to have a nuanced, reasonable discussion gets ignored.

Your views on transgender people are based on nothing more than your experiences at the hand of men. And that's wrong, and biased, and self-centred, and bigoted.

Mine aren't. Mine are based on my experience of what transactivists do and say.

Mine are based on the study that concluded transwomen have the same male pattern violence as natal men.

Mine are based on my absolute horror that sexual orientation is now being considered a choice. That the 'born this way' viewpoint is transphobic.

Mine is based on reading reams and reams from autogynephilic men, all of whom are now legitimately transgender.

Erm plenty of stats to back up the women's experience of violence at the hands of men dolce but facts don't seem to fit with your agenda do they?

Hear hear datun

Indeed, Datun.

Mine too.

I have not based mine only on my experience dolc.
I was all for transwomen accessing female spaces if they simply identified as female. Live and let live. What harm can it cause.

A year ago i was told by some on here to educate myself. To look at important stats. Read posts written by those who want to access female spaces. I did.

Now I see that the live and let live attitude only benefits men. Those born male.
The views and opinions held by some in the trans community are so vile and full of hatred for women. Their only goal is not to live and let live. It is to shut women up and make our exsistance secondary to theirs. They are like the borg. Only their wants matter and they do not care about who they fuck over in the process.

I do not want to give free access to those people. So to reduce the risk of that happening keeping female spaces female will go some way.

And you people had the nerve to call cat self centred when talking about her assault at the hands of a woman?

That is not the reason anyone called Cat self- centred. Cat was called self- centred because of the comments about all the things she didn't care about or had zero interest in and her complete inability to understand or acknowledge they might matter to others.

They are like the borg.
It's not funny but that did make me

No its not but I could not think of another way to describe that mind set, I think i watch the syfy channel too much.

I'd be absolutely amazed if dolce was a woman. And if she is, then I am willing to bet she's under 25 with very little life experience. I'm amazed that there are actual fully grown women out there that have such an immature and selfish attitude.

Some very strange responses here and I'm not talking about the posts from the so-called TERFs

I'm amazed that there are actual fully grown women out there that have such an immature and selfish attitude.

I was one of them at 38 and mother of 4

I did not see the bigger picture and I did not care to find out. I didnt think it affected me or my DDs.
I was very very wrong.

Sometimes I wish I was ignorant like before. It was easier than trying to voice my concerns above all the man noise but know I see it for what it is and I have to speak out. My DDs need me to.