To be sick and tired of women's concerns being silenced?

[MerchantofVenice]

Obviously I wouldn't dream of doing a TAAT.

But is anyone else as furious as I am that every time people try to raise legitimate concerns about the legislation about self-identity and transgender people, the whole discussion is shut down?

There's this undertone of 'Oh, you can't say that!!!' when people state scientific facts.

And at the same time, there's this myth that 'MN is one of the only places you can actually discuss the transgender debate openly.' Like fuck it is.

Your average person on the street isn't intimately acquainted with the madness of the debate and will have no qualms about stating facts. You see it on the comments after those nonsense news articles ("Man gives birth"). When you explain the situation to novices (as I did to my husband) they are gobsmacked. They had no idea that it was somehow a hate crime to be literate in biology.

And that's part of the problem; this hushing up colludes with the idea that people are saying something controversial. The debate stays secret and the tide of common sense never comes.

So sick of it.

The "looking" thing is a non-issue and a red herring for me. I don't want male bodied people in female spaces even if they are just getting changed.

I cannot see how women's rights are encroached upon by recognising (as we have done for 13 years) that a person can legally change gender and be known to all intents and purposes by the new gender, regardless of that person's chromosomal make-up.

Well perhaps you should try to see that?

But lizzieoak - that person's point wasn't about rape or attack. It was about being "looked at". She said she didn't want trans women or anyone with a penis in changing rooms because she would be "looked at". That was the point I was trying to make, about it being no different in that sense.

Are you really so fucking naive? Men don't just "look" at women.

Voyeurism is often what rapists start with. Violating women's boundaries is violence, and they get off on it. They look, they get off on it, but are we allowed to ban males from having an erection in the women's changing room? No? I don't think so.
Who is going to control whether those men film women in changing rooms? You can't really control this, the only way to be safe is to JUST NOT LET THEM IN.

Like it or not, males, regardless of gender identity, commit 95% of sexual crimes. We have VERY good reason to not want them in our changing rooms for that reason alone.

Also, not wanting someone with a thoroughly pornified mind, who views us as objects to stick his dick into, in our changing rooms, is something we have a right to.

Lesbians are women. If you can quote a study that says lesbian women differ in their crime rate from heterosexual women, I'd like to see it. If they lesbians women as objects, they also view themselves as objects. They cannot hate women in the same way men can.

There are male-identified lesbians who come close to being as woman-hating as men, by dissociating themselves from their own sex, but those nowadays openly say that they identify as male, so there's no problem with that. They can have a separate unisex changing room.
(I definitely do not want them in women's changing rooms. They can identify themselves out there. Still, even those are NOT as likely as men to film women, or assault us in other ways.)

And what about the ones who are on hormone therapy? Do their "behaviour patterns" not change as a result of the reduction of testosterone?

Not in my experience. They very obviously have been socialised as male.

dolcezza99 men continuously objectify women, whereas lesbians don't tend to. I've never been leered at, had suggestive comnents made about my body, had my boundaries ignored, etc , by a lesbian. In fact I've only ever experienced a woman even coming close to chatting me up, and she stopped as soon as I made it clear I wasn't interested.
I can't say the same about my experiences about men. Like every woman I have experienced that level of harrasment from men on a frequent basis. Though I guess I am one of the 'lucky' ones who has never been raped or seriously sexually assaulted.
There is no way in hell I am ever going to get changed, even down to underwear level, in front of a man, or someone that I believe is male, that I am not in a sexual relationship with or in a medical situation. Those are the only 2 exceptions. And neither is my daughter. And I don't give a single flying fuck if people think that is bigoted ir if it upsets their sense of validation.

Sorry, I should have said 'most' instead of 'every'. I'm sure there will be some women who say they have never felt objectified or sexually harassed by men, and who am I to call them liars.

Make the gender neutral spaces, like women had to make women only spaces.
Stop invading women only spaces, and stop ignoring the reasons we need them.

DJ, I don't really see how I'm invading anywhere, given that I'm a woman. But the point is that another poster told us that if we weren't bothered about transwomen using female spaces we should use gender neutral spaces. I'm happy to do so, and in fact regularly use a unisex toilet at work, but the question asked was where they are to be found elsewhere. And you seem to have avoided that one.

I don't even know where to begin with your post, Vestal, so I won't bother. It must be terribly sad to have to live with such a bigoted and ridiculous view of other members of the human race, simply based on your own social conditioning. You seem to have a very narrow and uneducated view of the world. I'm very glad I'm not you, or anything like you; I would be ashamed to spout those views in public.

Ah, dolce you are still here. Grand.

Can you please answer my question about other female only spaces?

If a male identifying female lesbian did assault me, unlikely, then at least I'd have a chance of fighting back, and I'd be more likely to fight back, than if it were a man, for reasons of strength and socialisation.
In any event I have no problem with biological women in women only spaces, whatever their sexual orientation. I have a problem with biological males in women only spaces as a result of a their propensity violence, including but not limited to sexual violence.

dolce insulting someone does not make for a compelling argument.

For those that don't agree with these objections, can I ask if you honestly believe a person can change sex? Do you honestly believe that sex, biological sex, is determined by your brain, not your body?

Do you believe that sexual orientation is all in the mind, and can, and should, be unlearned?

That straight women should include transmen with vaginas in their dating pool? Otherwise they are bigots? Do you think that lesbians are transphobic for not considering sex with transwomen with penises?

Transwomen commit crime at exactly the same rate as natal men (Usually those who are attracted to women, not those who are androphillic.)

You think it's appropriate that men who are attracted to women and retain a penis, and who have no concern for women's boundaries, should be allowed to access women and children in changing rooms, bathrooms, rape refugees?

When legally changing sex was first ratified, it was for a handful of genuine transsexuals. Now the majority are autogynephiles. The same men who were originally refused treatment, hormones etc on the basis that they had a fetish, not gender dysphoria.

It is they and any other chancers, voyeurs, predators for whom this legislation is a dream.

11 sex offenders from HMP Littlehey are transitioning to get into a womens prison

Some fairly important facts have been left out of that statement, viz:

They're on a course called "Transgender Pathway" which "includes psychological tests to prove they genuinely want to live as females and are not just seeking special treatment.... Part of the test is that they will seek surgery and hormone treatment".

So not just men who announce that they are women and have their wishes acceded to without question.

You seem to have a very narrow and uneducated view of the world. I'm very glad I'm not you, or anything like you; I would be ashamed to spout those views in public.

Don't worry there are many people who will feel exactly the same about you.

Dolce can I ask what your opinion is of Danielle muscato who is, I believe, currently languishing in a women's refuge?

Some fairly important facts have been left out of that statement, viz:

Some fairly important reasoning, sense and logic left out of your interpretation of a situation where 11 violent sex offending men in one prison all decide they are actually women.

Ceto if you had ever worked with sex offenders then you would understand they will go to extraordinary lengths to gain access to victims. Also the preponderance of autogynaephilia is higher in that population.

There are male-identified lesbians who come close to being as woman-hating as men, by dissociating themselves from their own sex, but those nowadays openly say that they identify as male, so there's no problem with that. They can have a separate unisex changing room.
(I definitely do not want them in women's changing rooms. They can identify themselves out there)

Eh? But they're women (I presume, if they are lesbian)? Why can't they use the changing room? Are they woman-hating if they are lesbian or do you mean that they objectify women when they talk about them?

Dolce can I ask what your opinion is of Danielle muscato who is, I believe, currently languishing in a women's refuge?

Women's refuge? Seriously? I am going to have to do some googling....

But they're women (I presume, if they are lesbian)?

Quite a transphobic assumption there!

Noeffingidea said it very well, but I'd add that it's the implied threat in being leered at by a male versus a lesbian just looking at me (and I've had countless times of the former on the street versus zero times of the latter).

For me I don't care if people who are trans are in the loo, it's the idea that a man can throw on a dress and come and perv or worse in the change rooms or loo. I doubt anyone is checking the biological reality of someone who is truly trans. It's the men who might take advantage of genderless spaces that concern me.

Papafran

Not only that, on International Women's Day, quite deliberately, he tweeted that if you didn't believe he was a woman you can 'suck his dick'.

He has spoken officially as a trans representative.

Why do people keep talking about the new bill? I'm very willing to be corrected, but so far as I know no new bill relevant to this issue has been introduced since the General Election. Until there is one in place and we know its terms, isn't it somewhat alarmist to assume there will no safeguards or exceptions in place? Obviously previous failed bills or proposals aren't relevant.

"you are assuming that a transwoman in a changing room is there to threaten, "look", attack."

I have zero fucks to give regarding why any give transwoman might want to be in female spaces.

What I know is that transwomen are male by definition and therefore don't belong in female spaces.

What I care about is not the feeeelz of a small number of males who want to be considered female but the safety concerns of girls and women, sadly based on terrifying experiences many of us have lived through more than once in our lives.

What do you care about?

Ceto the GI reform legislation is due to be debated in the autumn.

I'm not confident the consultation will be rigorous enough to ensure safeguards are adequate.