To be sick and tired of women's concerns being silenced?

[MerchantofVenice]

Obviously I wouldn't dream of doing a TAAT.

But is anyone else as furious as I am that every time people try to raise legitimate concerns about the legislation about self-identity and transgender people, the whole discussion is shut down?

There's this undertone of 'Oh, you can't say that!!!' when people state scientific facts.

And at the same time, there's this myth that 'MN is one of the only places you can actually discuss the transgender debate openly.' Like fuck it is.

Your average person on the street isn't intimately acquainted with the madness of the debate and will have no qualms about stating facts. You see it on the comments after those nonsense news articles ("Man gives birth"). When you explain the situation to novices (as I did to my husband) they are gobsmacked. They had no idea that it was somehow a hate crime to be literate in biology.

And that's part of the problem; this hushing up colludes with the idea that people are saying something controversial. The debate stays secret and the tide of common sense never comes.

So sick of it.

It would be as if society insisted on referring to you and seeing you as male.

Well, the first question would surely be, am I male? No, I'm female, as evidenced by the kids I've borne, so society would be wrong.

Why is that different from society telling me that as I'm female I have to do certain things, behave certain ways? Only go in certain places, submit to certain invasions? Why is it that someone who wants to hide their sex gets that accommodation, but someone who can't hide their sex doesn't? Shouldn't I, as a short, fat, mother have all the benefits that a tall, lean transman has?

I was stripped and attacked by 2 girls in the toilets at primary school.
I have been groped and made to feel uncomfortable by men on many occasions. I don't know a single woman who hasn't been groped by a man, usually when the women were in their teens
I have ASD.
I want to retain single sex spaces and I want accurate recording of crime/health
The implications are huge. We will never know if trans pose a threat because statistics will not be accurate
Stats for health, such as cervical cancer, will be skewed. I can imagine a future politician claiming there is no need to screen because cervical cancer rates have declined
I don't identify as a woman. I am a woman and the only thing I have in common with the group known as women is our shared biology
I don't know how anyone else feels. A born man has no idea how any woman feels. He can only feel like his personal idea of what woman means.

I'd bloody love it if society insisted on seeing me as male quite frankly. Hello payrise!

I guess so, maybe... I would not want to be male. It's probably not taking full account of the psychological distress that those with gender identity issues suffer though.

I remember that around the time the GRA came in, there was a lot of public sympathy for trans people. E.g. the Hayley on Coronation Street storyline garnered a lot of sympathy. It is interesting how there has been a complete about-change.

But do remember that the position is as it has been since 2004. You do not get gender recognition certificates handed out like sweets. It is a long and complex process. You may have men dressing as women and saying that they self-identify, but they currently are NOT recognised as women by the law. I don't think there is any timetabled legislation-change other than a private members bill that will not become law.

I only disclosed I have ASD because I don't like the implication that Cats inability to feel empathy is due to add
It is incorrect
I am not interested in sport but I would defend a womans right to compete against born women only

Dolce, you're starting to really fuck me off. I won't be explaining to you, or anyone else why I don't want a bloke looking at me. I'm astounded you're that arrogant to dare ask.

Well, I'm sorry about that, because I'm genuinely confused as to why it's different. Because it isn't. I would genuinely like to know why you don't think a lesbian in a female changing room is a problem, if the issue is being "looked at".

And CosmicPineapple, I absolutely did NOT call you a silly woman for not standing up to your rapist. Kindly do not misquote me in such a vile manner. I asked why, if you said you as a woman couldn't fight off a male rapist (my sympathies, by the way), you think that legislation to not allow them in a female space would have made any difference to that. My point being that a man intent on doing harm isn't going to be paying any attention to legislation or whether a space is supposed to be designated for females.

VERY different thing.

I am so sorry dolce it was not you at all.
I mixed up my posters.

It was got.

"I don't give two hoots about sport. Men born men are almost always going to be better at most sports than women."

That is why men's events and women's events are separate.

And that is exactly why males who want to present to the world as women should NOT be allowed to compete against females.

"I don't care. It's not an issue for me."

Go post on some other thread then

Most of us do give a shit about other women and their struggles, even if we are not directly affected. It's good to hear that all is fine in your world, though.

I asked why, if you said you as a woman couldn't fight off a male rapist (my sympathies, by the way), you think that legislation to not allow them in a female space would have made any difference to that.

Because why should we make it easier for them?

Why bother securing our homes to stop burglers. Or having alarms on our cars?
People break in and steal cars anyway dont they?

We do those things because we want to make it difficult for those who will steal from us.
I want female spaces to remain female only to make it more difficult for rapists not bloody easier!

Socialisation.

Lesbians have the same socialisation as all the other women out there and don't approach random women in public places for fear of attracting unwanted attention to thrmselves or their sexual identity.

Just because we want women only spaces, doesn't mean we're all lesbians or bi-curious and are gagging to experiment with each other behind closed doors.

Can any of the pro inviting men in posters answer my question?

I phrased it really politely and it's been completely ignored, except by Cat who said she wasn't able to understand my point.

"if you said you as a woman couldn't fight off a male rapist (my sympathies, by the way), you think that legislation to not allow them in a female space would have made any difference to that. My point being that a man intent on doing harm isn't going to be paying any attention to legislation"

Currently anyone can challenge a man going into a female area and tell him to get the fuck out. If legislation passes that anyone who says they "feel" like a woman is allowed access to these spaces, women can't tell them to get out.

Does that answer your question? Or do you have others basically meaning that we should shut up and put up, since men will do what they want as they always have and always will?

Re lesbians - They are female so can and should be in female spaces.

How is that even a question?

Well, I'm sorry about that, because I'm genuinely confused as to why it's different. Because it isn't. I would genuinely like to know why you don't think a lesbian in a female changing room is a problem, if the issue is being "looked at"

I have actually seen comments like that on a thread about bad memories of PE classes last year- something along the lines that lesbian PE teachers should not be allowed to enter girls' changing rooms. Again from posters who claim to just want to protect women's safe spaces... I reacted in disgust and was called all sorts.

It doesn't have anything to do with being looked at- it's the potential threat from a man that is the issue. I don't personally see the threat from someone who was born male but has since had surgery and has a gender recognition certificate, but I accept that others have different viewpoints on this.

Anyone who has an issue with lesbians in changing rooms can do one though (I say as a bisexual woman myself).

Just because we want women only spaces, doesn't mean we're all lesbians or bi-curious and are gagging to experiment with each other behind closed doors.

God, that's not what I said at all.

The issue in that post I questioned had somehow changed from "being attacked with a penis" to "being looked at", hence my question. If someone doesn't want a trans woman in a changing room because they have a penis (assuming they still have one) and might "look", how is that different from a lesbian who might "look", was my question. Because it really isn't, is it?

I am so sorry dolce it was not you at all.
I mixed up my posters.

No problem :)

For me, the vast difference between a lesbian in a changing room and a man in the women's changing room is that I don't feel physically intimidated by other women. They tend be round about the same size, and I think female to female rape of strangers must be infinitesimally small versus (unfortunately) male to female rape.

Re lesbians - They are female so can and should be in female spaces.

How is that even a question?

I agree, of course they should be! My point AGAIN was that the poster said she didn't want someone with a penis "looking at her". So I asked whether she had the same problem with lesbians. That's a perfectly logical question. Because they might "look" for the same reason, mightn't they?

Of course, if she doesn't have a problem with lesbians in the changing room (who would, really?) then that means her opinion is that all transwomen are out to look at her and/or attack her, which is absolutely ridiculous.

But lizzieoak - that person's point wasn't about rape or attack. It was about being "looked at". She said she didn't want trans women or anyone with a penis in changing rooms because she would be "looked at". That was the point I was trying to make, about it being no different in that sense.

He went on to say being back in tbe UK was refreshing and simple. I pointed out that may not be for long.Hes decided to move to Poland

Tell him he won't be safe there for long. I have talked to people from Eastern European countries that are about as conservative and sexist as Poland, and they're fully onboard the trans train, as they fully believe in ladybrains.

It will come to Poland sooner or later, if it is not stopped now.

The conservatives in the US drive the genderism movement even though they claim to oppose it, by traumatizing their daughters by forcing gender norms on them, and by encouraging misogyny and entitlement in their sons (but discouraging freedom of expression and sexual orientation in those sons). Basically, conservative parents produce an endless supply of children who are steeped in genderist ideology, but oftentimes don't want to be forced into the gender box their parents forced them into.

Someone only has to get the idea to openly promote it as conversion therapy for lesbians and gays, and hey presto, it will be accepted by conservatives.

"how is that different from a lesbian who might "look", was my question. Because it really isn't, is it?"

Looks from lesbians (if we even know who they are) are not threatening. Lesbians are women, with female physique and behavior patterns.

Men have entirely different levels of strength, social conditioning, and violence patterns which don't change when they put on lipstick and change names from Dick to Dolores.

Lesbians are women. Wouldn't bother me in the slightest. It's not about being looked at, it's the context. Men are bigger, stronger and more prone to violence. No comparison.

So you are assuming that a transwoman in a changing room is there to threaten, "look", attack.

Why can't they just be there to try on a dress, like everyone else? Why must they be there for nefarious reasons?

And what about the ones who are on hormone therapy? Do their "behaviour patterns" not change as a result of the reduction of testosterone?

I find it very, very sad that so many women are so needlessly petrified of perfectly normal people, I really do.

It's not about being looked at, it's the context

For you, no, perhaps not. That previous poster specifically said she didn't want to be "looked at", hence why I queried it. She also refused to answer my question when I asked why it was different.

dolce maybe you'd like to address my question about the other female only spaces?

Are you sad about what happened to the victims of these perfectly harmless people then?