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Original poster

To be sick and tired of women's concerns being silenced?

703 replies

MerchantofVenice · 20/08/2017 09:40

Obviously I wouldn't dream of doing a TAAT.

But is anyone else as furious as I am that every time people try to raise legitimate concerns about the legislation about self-identity and transgender people, the whole discussion is shut down?

There's this undertone of 'Oh, you can't say that!!!' when people state scientific facts.

And at the same time, there's this myth that 'MN is one of the only places you can actually discuss the transgender debate openly.' Like fuck it is.

Your average person on the street isn't intimately acquainted with the madness of the debate and will have no qualms about stating facts. You see it on the comments after those nonsense news articles ("Man gives birth"). When you explain the situation to novices (as I did to my husband) they are gobsmacked. They had no idea that it was somehow a hate crime to be literate in biology.

And that's part of the problem; this hushing up colludes with the idea that people are saying something controversial. The debate stays secret and the tide of common sense never comes.

So sick of it.

OP posts:
PricklyBall · 20/08/2017 13:49

"Do you really think rapists think "Oh wait, no, I can't go in there, I'm not allowed to!" ?"

No, again, no-one on this thread has said that. What they have said is "at the moment, a man can be challenged on entering a female-only space and be requested to explain himself. Of course the threat of that happening won't remove all risk of predatory men going into women's spaces (especially when they think no-one is looking), but it will reduce it."

And also, this isn't just about assaults where actual contact takes place. What about a man who simply gets of on exposing himself and making women uncomfortable - a flasher? He now has a cast-iron get out of jail free card. He walks into a communal women's changing room (there are such areas in public life - I can think of a couple in swimming pools near where I live) and strips off. At the moment I can call the pool's management and get him removed. In future, if I complain, he'll be able to say "but I identify as female", and I'll be the one being removed for being bigoted. Whether or not he genuinely does "identify as female" or whether he's a right chancer taking the mickey by saying "I identify as female". Because neither I, nor the sports centre management, nor anyone in the police, judiciary, potential jury, social services... is privy to the contents of his own mind. Congratulations - you have just put the entirely private and inaccessible contents of people's minds onto the statute books as a legal concept.

maxthemartian · 20/08/2017 13:49

Of course it does, I could get the hell out of there and get a security guard or phone the police.
Self-id law brought in and he could just say he "identifies as a woman".

DJBaggySmalls · 20/08/2017 13:50

Catandtwodogs
I've suggested gender neutral and women only spaces.
whats the problem with those?

Dont you care about women who cant share a space with a man?
Or who cant use a male doctor and have to ask for a biological woman?

dumdum56 · 20/08/2017 13:50

Ginger - exactly, Cat isn't concerned for anyone else's experiences but we should care about hers.

SmileEachDay · 20/08/2017 13:50

*Smile I don't believe I did ignore you. I suggested single person counselling one in one and single cublicles.

Would those make you feel safe?*

But what if I want my 1:1 counsellor to be a woman?
Or if group therapy was more helpful?

Catandtwodogs · 20/08/2017 13:51

Prickly surely if it's a communal changing room he has the right to strip off there at the minute anyway?

DJBaggySmalls · 20/08/2017 13:51

Catandtwodogs
If you think the new law isnt changing anything you dont understand it. Why not ask what it means for women instead of going off on one about mens rights?

Popchyk · 20/08/2017 13:52

Dolce, so you can't define what is real trans and what is false trans?

That's fine.

GahBuggerit · 20/08/2017 13:52

I think it's a load of bollocks Cat.

Although I look forward to getting a cheaper haircut as I'll be able to identify as a man, despite having massive tits and presenting as the biological woman that I am, and pop into my local barbers and they won't be able to chuck me out like they can currently :)

Catandtwodogs · 20/08/2017 13:53

Why would you care if they were qualified and able to support you? Genuine question - I don't care what gender or sex my counsellor is so I don't understand.

I don't understand group therapy either. I don't think it's useful.

PricklyBall · 20/08/2017 13:53

Okay, to clarify (though it's pretty bloody obvious what I meant) communal single-sex changing rooms. The sort with a large room with benches round the edge where one gets naked in order to change into a swimsuit. No cubicles whether with doors or curtains. Everyone in the room can see everyone else.

I cannot think of any mixed-sex communal changing rooms of this type anywhere in the UK, so didn't realise I had to spell it out in that much detail.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 20/08/2017 13:54

Spartacus - but isn't the solution just to campaign for better cleaning of facilities if there really is an issue with cleanliness

Then TRAs should campaign for this. Me? I want spaces that are female only because they suit me, victims of assault and a range of women from cultural and ethnic groups best. but if TRAs want access to female spaces they need to lobby for this. After all, they are really real women and will 'get this' aren't they / won't they?

Catandtwodogs · 20/08/2017 13:54

It isn't changing anything as far as I can see. A women can currently go into a men's toilet. That ain't change. And a man can go to a woman's. Regardless of the gender they present as or the sex they indentify as.

What's going to change ?

SmileEachDay · 20/08/2017 13:55

*Why would you care if they were qualified and able to support you? Genuine question - I don't care what gender or sex my counsellor is so I don't understand.

I don't understand group therapy either. I don't think it's useful.*

Because for a while I didn't feel safe around men. At all. I certainly couldn't have accepted counselling from a man. I'd have spent the whole time terrified.

Group therapy can be extremely useful - many, many people use it. A mutual sharing of experience can be very helpful.

dolcezza99 · 20/08/2017 13:55

Well you sound very much like one, and you sure don't like women much, what with your insistence that your trans friend should be able to look at women whether they like it or not.

What's your view on lesbians in changing rooms, RogueBiscuit ?

Catandtwodogs · 20/08/2017 13:56

Prickly thank you. Communal to me is cublicles that people of any sex get changed in with doors. That's what is in my local pool.

I'm sorry if I mistunderstood.

I have never seen a communal room as you describe where all is open.

They are all cublicles where I have been.

Catandtwodogs · 20/08/2017 13:57

I would hate group therapy. I would not find it helpful. It terrifies me.

DamnDeDoubtanceIsSpartacus · 20/08/2017 13:57

Women and girls should retain their rights, it's so odd that people are against this. I wonder if they have daughters?

DJBaggySmalls · 20/08/2017 13:58

Womens sports are being eradicated.
Some Muslim, Sikh, Hindu. Jewish, Romany and other women wont be able to go swimming, ask for a biologically female doctor, or use a public toilet.
Men will be given the legal right to access women only spaces such as prisons, psychiatric units,. hospital wards,. DV shelters and rape crisis.
The fact you dont care, or it doesnt affect you is irrelevant to the women it will affect

Catandtwodogs · 20/08/2017 13:58

I have daughters. What's your point damn?

PricklyBall · 20/08/2017 13:58

"Why would you care if they were qualified and able to support you? Genuine question - I don't care what gender or sex my counsellor is so I don't understand.

I don't understand group therapy either. I don't think it's useful."

I've seen women on here say that it has been a life saver to be able to talk to a woman counsellor when they were so traumatised by male violence they went into PTSD shut-down ever time they were in an enclosed space with a man (however benign they knew him to be on an intellectual level).

I've seen many women say that group therapy has been useful to them.

Just because neither of these things matters to you personally is not an argument for their pointlessness. I honestly don't think I've stumbled across many posters who come across as being as fundamentally self-centred and self-absorbed as you are. How about trying to make the imaginative leap required to accept that other people's experience are not the same as yours, and even where they are similar, their emotional responses may not be the same as yours?

Gingernaut · 20/08/2017 13:58

I've been in shops with one communal changing area.

It was mortifying.

I didn't feel comfortable at all.

Gingernaut · 20/08/2017 13:59

And they were women only. Confused

Catandtwodogs · 20/08/2017 13:59

But those women are being seoarated from men for patriarchy reasons. Better to give them equality and disallow the patriarchy reasons than carry on with a patriarchy reason for segregation.

SmileEachDay · 20/08/2017 14:00

I would hate group therapy. I would not find it helpful. It terrifies me.

Ok, but you seem to be missing my point. I'm talking about my experience.