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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To be worried about the future of WOMEN'S athletics

337 replies

TeamCersei · 11/08/2017 22:30

Just that really.

I've been avidly following the athletics and have noticed that at least two countries where the competitors are, how can I say this tactfully,? Are of dubious gender. Hmm
and guess what. They win the races. Every time.

How can women compete against this?
How is it fair?

I'm prepared to get my arse handed on a plate but I don't care.
I think this needs to be discussed.
God only knows how it feels from a competitor's point of view.
No matter how hard you train, the best woman can't hope to win against'men'

OP posts:
parklives · 12/08/2017 00:11

YNBU....I care...but I'm a women, so you're right op, the men that run the world don't give a shit about my opinion.

OlennasWimple · 12/08/2017 00:11

Competitors who have to undergo "gender testing", as they call it, should be treated with dignity.

Tests should be developed that can be administered in the same way as the myriad other tests that elite athletes and those on their way to becoming elite undergo on a regular basis - not after they have won a major competition and have the spotlight on them

Rhubarbginisnotasin · 12/08/2017 00:12

here was a competitor from Kenya in the women's race, who I also did a double take of

Ive not been watching much as Im on holiday with my grandchildren and we watch half an hour of the competition in between bed and bath.

Original poster
TeamCersei · 12/08/2017 00:12

Perhaps its time to give people their own intersex category because thats what they are - 'intersexed'

Exactly.
Some of them are fantastic athletes and are a joy to watch. They should be proud of their achievments.
Just not in the women's section.

OP posts:
nikiforov · 12/08/2017 00:14

I like how you all elected to ignore my posts.

www.iwm.at/publications/5-junior-visiting-fellows-conferences/vol-xxix/maren-behrensen-2/

This is what it's from. It's a very interesting article, fully cited, on intersex athletes in women's sports specifically.

Original poster
TeamCersei · 12/08/2017 00:14

This is a very touchy area.

OP posts:
Original poster
TeamCersei · 12/08/2017 00:19

nikiforov,
I have read most of that article.
It seems to concentrate mainly on testosterone levels.

My argument is:
Thephysical structure of an athlete, who has had high testosterone levels, is going to be different and advantageous.
the length of thigh bones is different.
the pelvis is a different shape.
It's too simplistic to say it's all about 'hormone levels' and the testing of hormone levels.
It's not all about 'hormone levels'

OP posts:
BoneyBackJefferson · 12/08/2017 00:19

TeamCersei
This is a very touchy area.

Indeed it is, but the knowing the facts would be better than spreading 'alt truths'.

Original poster
TeamCersei · 12/08/2017 00:20

Well, there are a fair few posters who share my concerns.
I can live with that.

OP posts:
ALittleBitOfButter · 12/08/2017 00:23

Yanbu.

nikiforov · 12/08/2017 00:25

They bring up in the article that many intersex athletes do not get the increased body structure from testosterone despite producing it. Their body doesn't use it, so I doubt you read it.

Biscuit

Have fun in your bubble not learning anything.

BoneyBackJefferson · 12/08/2017 00:26

TeamCersei

Believe it or not, I also share your concerns.

The IAAF also shares your concerns and will be going back to CAS to argue about the advantage of "T" levels (Amongst other things I hope)in athletes and the need to bring in a cap.

This would not only solve (part of) the unfortunate issue of intersex athletes (who have done nothing wrong) but also the (alleged) push of transwomen that want to compete in women's athletics.

Other sports may be able to use this to follow suit, but it depends on the what CAS says at the hearing.

BoneyBackJefferson · 12/08/2017 00:28

nikiforov

Not benefiting from T levels is dependent upon the type of intersex that the person is.

but it depends on what research you read and the bias contained within it.

As to whether CAS deems that 1.8 to 5% (approx) is a significant advantage remains to be seen.

VladmirsPoutine · 12/08/2017 00:29

Kenyans are pretty good athletes.

YABU to single them out.

Rhubarbginisnotasin · 12/08/2017 00:31

I like how you all elected to ignore my posts

People can ignore what they like and not just because they're already secure in their thoughts on a subject.

BoneyBackJefferson · 12/08/2017 00:31

nikiforov

here is an alternative view it also lays out some the the issues in the Chand case, the findings and what the IAAF hope to put forward as part of their case.

JayneAusten · 12/08/2017 00:34

Argue all you like about testosterone but when Semenya was on Testosterone blockers her performance dropped off the charts. The testosterone is CLEARLY an advantage for her.

I also feel that statements like this from a previous poster are not helpful: the subset of women with an XX-chromosome. and the subset of women with an XY-chromosome

This kind of talk is what is helping to erode common sense. Women with an XX chromosome are not a subset, they are WOMEN. Women with an XY chromosome are not a subset, they are MEN.

scottishdiem · 12/08/2017 00:34

Most if not all Intersex atheletes find out that they are intersex when they start to dominate and improve at their age class. Or fail a medical at national or international events.

The idea that you will have people "scouting" them is odd because they will not know themselves.

I get there are concerns about trans competing but I think that the hate here for intersex is very odd and the conspiracy theory of packs of agents scouting out girls to test their genitals is not based on any fact.

Intersex is not female enough for some and not male enough for others.

Be honest, just say it. Tell the athletes concerned - sorry you are a freak of nature, a biological mistake and not what we want to see on the track.

user10794etc · 12/08/2017 00:34

How are you judging their "dubious gender"?

Don't you think the top male athletes were also born with higher testosterone levels than your average man? Does that mean their advantage is unfair too?

I can train and train and train but I'd never be able to outrun Usain Bolt. He was born with better genetics than me! He should be banned!

KimKardashiansArse · 12/08/2017 00:36

YANBU at all. It much be awful for the female athletes affected by this.

FrogsLegs31 · 12/08/2017 00:37

Such great feminists on here.

Shouting for the rights of all women, except those that don't fit your own ignorant definition of femininity. It is just horrible to see intersex people lumped wholesale into the "wrong" bin with transgender people. The level of ignorance about the biology of intersex people (which is a continuum btw) is stunning.

Shamoo · 12/08/2017 00:44

The inherent racism in all of this shouldn't be ignored either.

IfYouGoDownToTheWoodsToday · 12/08/2017 00:45

"I get there are concerns about trans competing but I think that the hate here for intersex is very odd"
-It's not hate, it's a anger that women are being sidelined, yet again, because we don't matter.

"Be honest, just say it. Tell the athletes concerned - sorry you are a freak of nature, a biological mistake and not what we want to see on the track"
-We don't mind seeing them on the track. Just not competing with women.

It makes me so angry and so so sorry for the rest of the competitors.

Original poster
TeamCersei · 12/08/2017 00:51

TeamCersei

Believe it or not, I also share your concerns.

The IAAF also shares your concerns and will be going back to CAS to argue about the advantage of "T" levels (Amongst other things I hope)in athletes and the need to bring in a cap.

This would not only solve (part of) the unfortunate issue of intersex athletes (who have done nothing wrong) but also the (alleged) push of transwomen that want to compete in women's athletics.

Other sports may be able to use this to follow suit, but it depends on the what CAS says at the hearing.

not just me then

Can't believe that people are trying to say this is racism? Seriously?
Give it a rest
Have a Biscuit right back at ya!

OP posts:
Original poster
TeamCersei · 12/08/2017 00:51

Good to see some common sense.

OP posts:
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