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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To be worried about the future of WOMEN'S athletics

337 replies

TeamCersei · 11/08/2017 22:30

Just that really.

I've been avidly following the athletics and have noticed that at least two countries where the competitors are, how can I say this tactfully,? Are of dubious gender. Hmm
and guess what. They win the races. Every time.

How can women compete against this?
How is it fair?

I'm prepared to get my arse handed on a plate but I don't care.
I think this needs to be discussed.
God only knows how it feels from a competitor's point of view.
No matter how hard you train, the best woman can't hope to win against'men'

OP posts:
FerretsAreFeminists · 11/08/2017 22:59

It really is ridiculous OP.

RoderickRules · 11/08/2017 22:59

This is the tip of the iceberg.
Intersex athletes will be scouted for before long/if they are not already.

FerretsAreFeminists · 11/08/2017 22:59

I have no idea how anyone can say yabu either.

PurpleDaisies · 11/08/2017 23:00

If they are 'intersex' why not compete in the men's?
why compete in the women's?

Caster Semenya was raised as a woman. It's a much more tricky issue than transgender athletes because she has no choice over what her biology is. That's not to say that her higher testosterone doesn't give her an advantage over others.

It'll be interesting to see what the IAAF come up with to make things fair.

justicewomen · 11/08/2017 23:02

But they automatically have an unfair advantage.

Actually the reason for the court success of Dutee Shand is that they could not prove advantage. The Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) gave the IAAF two years to compile evidence demonstrating that high levels of testosterone had a significant impact on performance.

They may well have an advantage but for the court to require testosterone reduction treatment they would have to show it was more significant than other naturally occurring advantages like twitch muscles or coming from a high altitude country.

The professor in the article states:
Do you ban all Kenyan athletes because they train at high altitude and so can use oxygen more efficiently? “Testosterone levels is just one of many variables that impact performance. And it can work both ways. Someone with more testosterone generally gains more muscle mass and weighs more, so it can be like running with two extra bags of sugar.

“I think the court will keep things as it is, and this row will keep rumbling on.”

justicewomen · 11/08/2017 23:03

Sorry my first sentence is repeating the OP

RaininSummer · 11/08/2017 23:03

Definitely NBU. The situation is quite ridiculous.

Terfing · 11/08/2017 23:03

A good example of why this is wrong comes from Caitlyn Jenner. As 'Bruce Jenner', they were the 26th best athlete worldwide at the decathlon (an event which women are not even allowed to compete in!). However, as 'Caitlyn Jenner', they hold the world record for women in this sport...

Kickhiminthenuts · 11/08/2017 23:04

Her testosterone is above the limit, so we either level the playing field by giving all athletes the same testosterone level or we use the limit we had in place already.

If I remember rightly semenas testosterone level gives her a 3 second advantage

Ceto · 11/08/2017 23:05

I think this needs to be discussed.

Because it's only been discussed around 380 times on MN already. At a conservative estimate.

RestlessTraveller · 11/08/2017 23:07

If you have something to say op then how about having the balls (pun intended) to actually say it.

OlennasWimple · 11/08/2017 23:07

YANBU

And female athletes who express these concerns are called sore losers

QueenLaBeefah · 11/08/2017 23:08

YANBU

Original poster
TeamCersei · 11/08/2017 23:08

Can someone answer this question:

Why do intersex athletes align themselves with Women's Athletics.
Why don't they compete in the men's races?
It's obviously because they know they stand a good chance of beating the women, whears the men would wipe the floor with them.

Somebody needs to be taking this seriously.
Somebody who won't be

OP posts:
Original poster
TeamCersei · 11/08/2017 23:10

Somebody who won't be phased.

OP posts:
scrabbler3 · 11/08/2017 23:11

I suspect that certain nations with dodgy ethics will start ruthlessly hothousing intersex children before long, with promises of wealth and celebrity. I envisage Olympics in the 2030s onwards being dominated by such athletes unless something is done now. Many of these children will not be suited mentally to the brutality and disappointments of professional sport (few people are), so it will harm them as well as their sport.

I'd add that I don't think for a minute that Caster seeks to cheat. She was raised as a girl and has competed as such. I have nothing against her, she seems nice. However, it's not fair and it's a time bomb.

scottishdiem · 11/08/2017 23:13

Born with, from the outside, female genitalia. Lived their life as female. As a teenager go through fairly invasive medical tests which prove your are not female at all.

Not a man either but hey ho. Get referred to a "she" on mumsnet. Why not be brave. Call them an "it" as they are not the hated male to female transgender either.

Oh, and some of the comments in the feminist chat are also like to make a lot of the fact that "it" is married to a female. As if that is relevant to running 800m.

Of course, one of the side effects of this is that all women atheletes basically get asked, is your vagania a real one and what tests have you done to prove it. This usually now happens when they are teenagers. Which must be fun.

VestalVirgin · 11/08/2017 23:14

Her testosterone is above the limit, so we either level the playing field by giving all athletes the same testosterone level or we use the limit we had in place already.

How would we give all athletes the same testosterone level? Should female athletes now take artificial testosterone, which is massively harmful to someone with actually female reproductive organs?

Intersex athletes are only the tip of the iceberg. It is unfair, and at the VERY least they should have to take testosterone blockers or compete against men - or have their own category.

But males who just identify their way into women's sports are even worse. Unlike intersex athletes, there's an unlimited supply of them, so women won't even be able to make second or third place.

This needs to be stopped, and fast.

Viviennemary · 11/08/2017 23:15

But it's the way society is going. All the old rules thrown out of the window.

justicewomen · 11/08/2017 23:15

Op as Caster Semenya was raised as a girl, and was not aware of her intersex condition until she was competing, your suggestion of cynicism is unwarranted. I am unaware of the upbringing of the other two both both are from African nations. Interesting Dutee Shand who brought the case to CAS is not a particularly successful athlete,

It is noticeable that all the highly successful intersex athletes are from developing countries where they do not do the sort of tests they do on intersex babies in developed countries.

cardibach · 11/08/2017 23:16

The intersex athletes who compete in women's athletics domso because they have always been referred to/treated as women. They have been assigned the female sex as they lean closer to it than male, as far as I understand it. This is different from the 'assigned gender'bollocks spouted by some trans activists.
Caster Semenya (for example) has been passed as a woman for competition by the boards of international athletics. Does she have an advantage? Of course. But she was born with it, like Michael Phelps was born with his freak of nature physiology. Is it unfair he competes at all? It's a difficult issue, certainly, but it's a different difficult issue from trans athletes. Intersexual issues and trans issues have nothing in common.

Rumandraisin1 · 11/08/2017 23:19

Yanbu. This is what comes from confusing biological sex with gender identity. Men and women's sport is segregated based on physical differences, not having a pink or blue brain. I really sympathise with female athletes who have worked all their life for this only to be beaten by a man - and of course they have to say that it's fine and smile etc or they'll be villified, receive rape threats and lose their sponsorship.

Original poster
TeamCersei · 11/08/2017 23:21

It's not as simple as 'high testosterone levels'

If a person has spent most of their life with high testosterone levels, it will be reflected in their physicality.

They will have physical traits that will give them an advantage over nearly all female athletes.
So even if they were to eventually take medication to suppress those male hormones, their bodies have developed as 'male', which gives them an advantage over females.

I agree, it's a time bomb.

I bet female athletes are told to say nothing and forced to be gracious in the face of defeat, but God only knows what's really going through their minds.

OP posts:
justicewomen · 11/08/2017 23:21

It is fascinating a bunch of commentators on Mumsnet profess to know more definitively than the Court of Arbitration in Sport who have look at the actual science and law. It may be at the next hearing that the requirement to take testosterone reducers is reinstated but it is not clearcut, as testosterone is only one of a huge number of genetic and environmental issues that determine performance

MeanAger · 11/08/2017 23:25

What Is it going to take for this to stop? Or is it just how it is now? Do we accept this is it? Women's sport no longer exists? Will female athletes start speaking out? Boycotting events? Or will they (understandably) keep quiet and avoid the death threats, rape threats and loss of sponsorship?