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Original poster

To be worried about the future of WOMEN'S athletics

337 replies

TeamCersei · 11/08/2017 22:30

Just that really.

I've been avidly following the athletics and have noticed that at least two countries where the competitors are, how can I say this tactfully,? Are of dubious gender. Hmm
and guess what. They win the races. Every time.

How can women compete against this?
How is it fair?

I'm prepared to get my arse handed on a plate but I don't care.
I think this needs to be discussed.
God only knows how it feels from a competitor's point of view.
No matter how hard you train, the best woman can't hope to win against'men'

OP posts:
Papafran · 12/08/2017 08:00

I don't think Paula Radcliffe having or not having internal and non-descended testes (which by the way it has never been proven that CS has) is either here or there. The fact is that she has a natural, born, physical advantage over any other female who has a normal lung capacity). A bit like Michael Phelps' physique gives him a natural, born, physical advantage over any other male swimmer, no matter how much training he does.

If CS was a man, running at the same speeds as a male competitor, she would have easily taken gold in the 1500m final the other day.

RoderickRules · 12/08/2017 08:06

You are deliberately missing the point.
Every competitor has lungs in this class.
Semantics and other intersex athletes have an advantage over other female because of their male characteristics.

RoderickRules · 12/08/2017 08:06

Semanya

Papafran · 12/08/2017 08:06

No Cosmic, it doesn't show that I am uneducated. The comment was meant to show what a gross overreaction this is. Neither of these women was born male and has transitioned. We don't even know if Wambui even has any issues with gender beyond 'looking masculine'. We don't know what CS's issues are because the results have never been released but we do know she was raised female. From this, you think that women's athletics is doomed. Intersex (if that is what CS has) is extremely rare. It affects a tiny, tiny minority of the population.

How long do I think women's athletics will continue? Hmmm, as long as men's athletics continue I guess.

Introvertedbuthappy · 12/08/2017 08:07

People are clearly forgetting Castor Semenya came 4th in a race earlier this week... Clearly this is only an issue when she actually wins...

This is totally different to transgender. Castor had invasive tests to 'prove' she was a woman (IE with a natural vagina). How humiliating! Where do we draw the line? Insisting taller athletes run with a stoop so they don't benefit from a height advantage? Damaging the lungs of athletes from Kenya so they no longer maintain their advantage through training at high altitudes? Slashing the funding for Western athletes for their expensive trainers as It's not fair on those in developing countries?...

JigglyTuff · 12/08/2017 08:07

It is still more than 3x higher than even the highest levels found in women Blondes

Blondefancy · 12/08/2017 08:09

Also..Kenyans have a distinct physiological advantage over say British athletes. Mostly due to differences in altitude effecting their natural red blood cell count, it is one of the reasons they are natural sprinters and long distance runners. Because this woman looked slightly masculine does not give you a reason to jump to conclusions about her gender 🤔 Just to add as well, woman's sport is not in trouble and I think alot of you are making mountains out of molehills - although, as I have previously said, this will probably be discussed at some point in the future of athletics.

Papafran · 12/08/2017 08:10

Semantics and other intersex athletes have an advantage over other female because of their male characteristics

No, you are missing the point. Male characteristics would include higher testosterone and more muscle. It happens to relate to sex because men always have more testosterone than women. If men instead all had bigger lungs, that would also be a male characteristic. It is the bigger lung capacity that gives Paula Radciffe a physical advantage and it is the increased testosterone that gives Caster Semenya a physical advantage. Both are physical advantages that will help them run faster than their competitors (which is the ultimate point). However, only one is classed as being part of being 'male'.

CosmicPineapple · 12/08/2017 08:11

The fact is that she has a natural, born, physical advantage over any other female who has a normal lung capacity).

Thats just it. Natural physical advantage over other females. Very different to natural physical advantage because she was born male.
Doping is banned as it gives an unatural advantage.
Males competing against females in sport is an unatural advantage as males are naturally different to females. Thats a scientific fact.

RoderickRules · 12/08/2017 08:15

But PR is not intersex so it's not a valid point.
The races are (were) separated by sex.
That's the point.
Intersex athletes should not be in the women's class.

CosmicPineapple · 12/08/2017 08:16

The comment was meant to show what a gross overreaction this is.

You could have chosen another example there are a few I can think of yet you chose to use a rasist one.
You are trying to discredit my opinion by using racism hoping that is what will be focused on.
Low tactic Pap.

Papafran · 12/08/2017 08:21

Very different to natural physical advantage because she was born male

How many times do you want it spelled out to you- Caster Semenya was not born male. She was raised female (but may or may not have an intersex condition). She may have abnormally high levels of testosterone but she has never been a man.

Also, what do you say to the fact that she was beaten by two other athletes the other day? Are they men too?

As for the racist thing, I didn't accuse you of being racist, this has nothing to do with racism. It's an analogy.

CosmicPineapple · 12/08/2017 08:26

At what point did I mention CS?

Not one of my posts are about that paticular athlete. So wind your neck in.

You could have chosen a different analogy. I know the reason you chose that one I said so in an earlier post.

Your opinion means very little to me Pap and your debate techniques are underhand.

Have a nice morning.

sweetbitter · 12/08/2017 08:27

Does Paula Radcliffe have exceptional lung capacity? I have googled and can't find anything about it. Except that she has asthma which can actually reduce lung capacity...

Papafran · 12/08/2017 08:29

Not one of my posts are about that paticular athlete. So wind your neck in

So who are you talking about then? I thought the whole thread was about Caster Semenya and Margaret Wambui. Please enlighten.

If you were just referring to biological men in general, I agree with you, they should not be allowed to compete in women's races if they have been through male puberty. However, in athletics, I am unaware of any biological males competing in the women's race (although I am aware of the NZ weight lifter and do not agree with that).

HurryUpAndWait · 12/08/2017 08:33

You're unreasonable to make yet another thread on AIBU. MN has other boards for this kind of debate thread where the same posters all agree with each other.

@sooperdooper - "Yanbu it's bullshit I can't be more eloquent right now"

Don't worry. You're in the majority on this thread.

nolongersurprised · 12/08/2017 08:33

It's funny how everyone on here is such an expert on testosterone levels.

With complete AIS there can be a million times normal and yet it can't be converted so is not useful. I read somewhere that about 1 in 400 female athletes have CAIS per Olympic Games. Caster, IMO, has partial AIS so some virilisation but there's a number of athletes who have competeted and only the medics know whether their outwardwardly normal looking clitorus, vulva and vagina leads to a normal uterus.

The rules are that women with complete CAIS - who will be picked up because of the high testosterone their bodies can't use - can compete as women. They aren't men, they don't have male genitalia and they're not socialised as men and they haven't been exposed to testosterone.

Papafran · 12/08/2017 08:37

Does Paula Radcliffe have exceptional lung capacity? I have googled and can't find anything about it. Except that she has asthma which can actually reduce lung capacity

I think I watched it on a documentary. Basically, her running speed and endurance is considered a bit of a freak of nature because she ran at the same speeds (and therefore with the lung, blood, heart etc capacity) of what you would expect of a male athlete. But then again, she has also been accused of doping in the past.

JacquesHammer · 12/08/2017 08:40

I have a massive interest in sports provision for women.

Intersex athletes are not an issue for me.

Transgender athletes who compete as men, then decide their women and compete in women's competitions are.

AlpacaLypse · 12/08/2017 08:44

We're getting two problems mixed up here. Intersex athletes are a completely different kettle of fish to indubitably male people who decide for emotional reasons that they are actually female and therefore entitled to be treated as female even at the expense of born females.

JacquesHammer · 12/08/2017 08:50

*they're. Sheesh. Wish we had an edit button

AlecTrevelyan006 · 12/08/2017 08:50

The reason Caster Semenya didnt win the 1500m is simply because she is primarily an 800m runner. Here's a video of Semenya being interviewed after taking the bronze medal.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=FInE3dUvmtM

Papafran · 12/08/2017 08:59

Yes, Alec but she runs the 1500 metres about 30-40 seconds slower than the men. Surely if she had all the biological advantage of being male, she would be shooting ahead of all the women, even if it wasn't her strongest sport. She is also not the world record holder for 800m (even discounting all the Eastern Europe records from the 80s).

Blondefancy · 12/08/2017 09:00

it's funny how everyone on here is such an expert on testosterone levels

  • BA in sport science
  • Works within the health and fitness industry

..not sure about everyone else

sweetbitter · 12/08/2017 09:00

Basically, her running speed and endurance is considered a bit of a freak of nature because she ran at the same speeds (and therefore with the lung, blood, heart etc capacity) of what you would expect of a male athlete.

Interestingly her massive 2h15m world record was set when she was being led by male pacemakers, which seemed to cause a lot of controversy and is now banned - women's records have to be set in women only races with female pacemakers. I didn't know about this until I looked up the lung capacity thing.