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Original poster

To be worried about the future of WOMEN'S athletics

337 replies

TeamCersei · 11/08/2017 22:30

Just that really.

I've been avidly following the athletics and have noticed that at least two countries where the competitors are, how can I say this tactfully,? Are of dubious gender. Hmm
and guess what. They win the races. Every time.

How can women compete against this?
How is it fair?

I'm prepared to get my arse handed on a plate but I don't care.
I think this needs to be discussed.
God only knows how it feels from a competitor's point of view.
No matter how hard you train, the best woman can't hope to win against'men'

OP posts:
worridmum · 14/08/2017 14:51

And again i am talking about biology i dont really have an opinion of transgender just the biological aspects.

JigglyTuff · 14/08/2017 14:53

You did an MA in human evolution and you can't spell ethnicity? Confused

In any event, race is a totally different thing and it's frankly absurd to draw parallels. Intersex people are found in all races and ethnicities - they're a genetic mutation.

worridmum · 14/08/2017 14:58

Yes sorry i am dyslexic and should only really post on a computer instead of my phone as my phones spell check is rubbish.

I am sorry again about spelling could you please look past it about the points i am trying to make.

worridmum · 14/08/2017 15:06

And yes why should the genetic mutation exculde them from sport which is exactly my point?

The human race is a very genetically varible species and it is why there are advatages between men and women in sport but with intersex people those advantages are alot smaller and the same level of the differences between races in most cases, so excluding intersex people from sport just because of the genetic mutatuion of there procviced advatage is THE SAME AS SUGGESTING enthic separations because of the biology of there birth they have advantages or disadvantages over others of not of the same genetic background.

UnderCrackers5 · 14/08/2017 15:13

It wont be long before all the finalists at the Olympics womens 100m are all men

Morphene · 14/08/2017 15:25

worriedmum I think the problem with your suggestion is that everyone has different genetics and hence abilities at sports of different kinds. You can't level the playing field for everyone. This isn't a fault in your argument, it is a fault with the idea that sports are FAIR in any sense of the word. They aren't. It is ridiculous to suggest they are.

It is more obvious in the disability sport arena because of the grading system. The people who win races are the people who are affected least by their disability in each category. A change to the categorizations causes all the winners and losers to be shunted around. Is it fair for the person with the worst CP in a particular category to have to complete against the person least affected by their CP in the same category? Of course not.

So non-disability sport is just the same. You have an open category and then this apparently poorly defined secondary category for people mostly afflicted by XX or those who assumed they were XX but might not be. It doesn't matter where you draw the line, there will be winners and losers. The people who win in this category are those least affected by the genetic disadvantage of XX.

To be honest I think the only logical place to draw a line is XX. Its obviously a big enough group to support a second category. It would be unfortunate for any number of aspiring athletes who would wish to compete in the XX category but would not be able to due to additional unwanted Ys, but they are just in the same position as the overwhelming majority of XX people, who just don't have the physique or genetics required to be a world class athlete.

Morphene · 14/08/2017 15:29

Making the category XX, won't actually stop all of the 100m finalists looking like men in the future though....eventually there will be enough people with XX and freakishly high natural T levels that even though they are XX they look male, and they will easily outperform the people who look like women.

derxa · 14/08/2017 15:53

Making the category XX, won't actually stop all of the 100m finalists looking like men in the future though. Looking like men isn't the problem

UnderCrackers5 · 14/08/2017 16:21

anyone suspicious should be made to carry a three pound 'Wogan' in their shorts. That should slow them down a bit

QueenoftheAndals · 14/08/2017 16:21

Black people are genetically better (on average) for certain types of sports with the best examples being stuff such as long distance running there IS a reason people of African decent dominate these area

Yes, and as stated earlier there are reasons other than genetics that contribute to this. It's not simply a matter of saying black people are better at running and white people are better at swimming when there are numerous economic and social factors at play too.

TinklyLittleLaugh · 14/08/2017 17:30

People of West African descent have more fast twitch muscle fibres though. The sprint finals are always all black, nothing to do with economic or social factors.

TinklyLittleLaugh · 14/08/2017 17:37

And I'm not sure at all about some aspects of disabled sport. DH's relative was an average disabled sports woman and was then recategorised into a lower band and is winning golds left right and centre. There are lots of claims online that she purposely underperformed on the assessment swim. I don't know how that sort of thing can be measured really (her disability is not something easily categorisable like a missing limb).

histinyhandsarefrozen · 14/08/2017 17:43

I was watching at the stadium last night, and the cheers for caster were incredibly loud. Not from me.

Is having an 'enhanced' category in the paraolympics a possibility in the future?

QueenoftheAndals · 14/08/2017 18:03

The sprint finals are always all black, nothing to do with economic or social factors.

You need to look at the bigger picture as well. What sports are most popular in certain countries, what sports require money etc. It isn't just genetics.

PetalMettle · 14/08/2017 18:23

The sprint finals are always all black

Other than the 200m which was one by dafne schippers I presume - blonde haired and blue eyed!

Incidentally this is nothing new www.katharinemerry.com/blog/2016/7/21/caster-semenya-1

OlennasWimple · 14/08/2017 20:04

The sprint finals are always all black

Overwhelmingly, but not always (eg Adam Gemili is a British sprinter of Iranian / Moroccan descent)

Morphene · 14/08/2017 20:09

derxa it is according to many on this thread. What difference does it make to anyone if the person with the male physique, who looks male and is outperforming people who look like women, is actually xy male, is actually xxy or anything else, or is XX with some weird mutation that makes them appear male?

Any of those has the same terrible impacts predicted here in terms of turning girls off sport...and of making it impossible for 'real' xx women to compete....

If having a male physique isn't the problem then what is?

derxa · 14/08/2017 20:23

f having a male physique isn't the problem then what is? Having a physiological advantage.

BoneyBackJefferson · 14/08/2017 20:26

PetalMettle
The sprint finals are always all black

Other than the 200m which was one by dafne schippers I presume - blonde haired and blue eyed!

Do you have a problem with Dafne Schippers having blonde hair and blue eyed?

Morphene · 14/08/2017 20:29

the physiological advantage IS the male physique!

Its all tied up together....
bone structure muscle mass testosterone...

there are XX women out there with mutations that will give them male physique...and possibly make them infertile. Is it terribly important that they are the outliers winning medals in the future rather than intersex people?

PetalMettle · 14/08/2017 22:31

Of course I don't have an issue with it.
Someone said the sprint finals were all black, I was saying that wasn't right.
The blonde hair/blue eyes comment is becAuse someone said we didn't like semenya as she wasn't blonde Haired and blue eyed enough.
This is why you should rtft!

BoneyBackJefferson · 14/08/2017 23:22

PetalMettle

If you want to antagonise those that are trying to play the race card, then fine.

But it just serves to derail the thread.

However if you would rather have an adult discussion etc.

Yorkshirebetty · 15/08/2017 09:53

Yanbu. Extra testosterone, whether you can help it or not, is a distinct advantage. It gives you extra speed, stamina and muscle. I think the rules should be changed.

worridmum · 15/08/2017 10:01

But so are other factors shouldnt the rules be changed to allow more none black people to compete as there genres can give them a distinct advantage other wise the finaĺs would be far more mixed....

When is on genetic expression over another be deemed to big an advantage? Why single out the genetic expression of intersex while leaving out other genetic traits advantages out?

JigglyTuff · 15/08/2017 10:04

Because we are a two sexed species worrid. The fact that there are some anomalies doesn't change that.