To be sick of victim blaming on MN?

[CherryChasingDotMuncher]

I'm sick to the back teeth of reading victim blaming comments on here. Am I the only one who's noticed the tides turning on MN recently?

Heaven forbid women who've been through a trauma wear clothes from their actual wardrobe and don't buy a "victim outfit" to wear in public. It appears they're not a real victim unless they adhere to a certain set of behaviours.

That's just one thread today. I've seen comments recently about what sexual assault victims wear, how drunk they are. Yesterday people were equating raping a woman with a woman lying about taking a contraceptive pill (someone even said this was the same as rape) and not too long ago someone commented that it was Amber Heard's own fault that she got hit by the phone Jonny Depp threw at her because she didn't duck.

If you challenge these comments then you're often called a feminazi, an idiot or a man-hater.

I know this is kind of a TAAT (or several threads) but I'm beyond disappointed that a website predominantly for women would have so many people letting the side down and believing that other women are either lying until they can prove otherwise or that they deserve the abuse they get from men. And if that woman has ever displayed any sexual behaviour ever, then it's even worse.

As a woman I can violate my husbands body autonomy by sticking his bits in me against his will, or by lying and using deceit to trick him into consenting

Do you really believe these are the same thing? That physically damaging someone against their will is worse than telling a lie?

If you do (and I can't believe anyone would be that blind) then I can't help you.

I take it you think the same for other types of assault? If for example you misled and deceived me, but didn't lay a finger on me, can I punch you in the face?

They're not the same thing. You clearly see the human body as little more than an object if you think it's so unimportant that damaging it is not that big of a deal.

The problem is that to some not victim blaming appears to mean believing everything someone says without question and never questioning/ discussing even what appear to be ludicrous events, issues etc. No one takes everything at face value in real life, why should they do it on internet?

Fair enough Stick, however sexual assault is any kind of sexual contact without consent of one party. So explain how a woman not taking a pill applies to this or makes a man fear for his physical safety?

Cherry it is the same thing. Just that rape involves a penis. Other than semantics then it's both deceitful

If a penis truly damaged women then why are we having sex and having babies?

I wasn't arguing with you, if anything it just supports your argument

gotspolier men have been convicted of rape for secretly removing condoms because the female consented to barrier controlled sex and he violated that so, at least in the eye of the law, you are wrong.

I think YABVVVU as in mumsnet s teenagers who come back home drunk and that are having sex at the age of 14 are the standard (specially if it's someone's DD)

If a penis truly damaged women then why are we having sex and having babies?

You're so right, a penis raping a woman couldn't possibly do damage.

Jesus this just illustrating my point really

Seems so until the law is updated

Cherry you are not getting it. How do we humans make babies? We have sex. As you learnt in sex ed lessons at schools that involves PIV sex. With me? By your logic sex should be banned and only a turkey baster to be used, or test-tube babies

Cherry it is the same thing. Just that rape involves a penis. Other than semantics then it's both deceitful

It's not semantics - one is rape, one is it. That's like saying "shoplifting and murder - it's just semantics!"

Do you understand what semantics means?

I think that there is some victim blaming happening on here which is wrong.
However there does need to be some education regarding personal safety. Yes
Rapists rape but you can do things to minimize you chances of being a target.

When I lived in Reading I was mugged at knife point, I accepted that part of it was
My fault. I was walking in a known dodgy area at night alone.

So yes you should be able to wear what you please, but in the real world there is crime and you need to be responsible for yourself.

I can see this being a South Park episode unless it's been done already

Mr. Mackey: Sex is bayyyyyyyyyd mkay?

I can be raped by my husband without him physically hurting me. If I ask him to stop mid sex and he doesn't then that is rape. He can also rape me while wearing a condom and there being no chance of getting an sti or getting pregnant.

Also Cherry I am not looking for your help. We are discussing a very difficult and delicate subject.

If I consent to barrier sex and he secretly removes the barrier that is rape. Ìf he consents to sex and I've secretly stopped taking contraception then that should also be rape.

Again, in my opinion rape is non consentual sex. Women and men can both be guilty of this.

Cherry you are not getting it. How do we humans make babies? We have sex

What are you going on about?

YOU said "how could penises damage a woman". Plenty of women are damaged by penises. Rape victims in particular. Or do you think they're lying. I didn't say every sexual encounter resulted in a penis doing damage did I?

This is a classic derailment - only being obtuse and using semantics to avoid discussing actual points. Not sure why I engage with such banality

Victim blaming is awful, but so is just jumping to guilty without listening to and arguing the facts.

Will always remember that landlord that was blamed for Joanna Yeates murder. His life is completely ruined and he didn't even do it!

Sorry derailing back to the original question

Ìf he consents to sex and I've secretly stopped taking contraception then that should also be rape.

Even though it involves no physical contact? And it doesn't matter if rape does no physical damage, it's a violation of the body.

Again, in my opinion rape is non consentual sex. Women and men can both be guilty of this.

But the man is consenting at the point of the sexual act, it is not rape. the woman is betraying the promise that she is taking the pill. This is not the same as breaking sexual consent. I don't think you understand the difference or don't want to

And if we are talking about contraception, the man always has control. If he wants to take it.

Cherry you are wrong though. Lets take this scenario. Woman lies about being on the pill, gets pregnant, man doesn't want this and it takes it's toll on his mental health and causes stress. I mean that isn't very nice now is it?

A man who was convicted of deliberately removing his condom without his partner’s knowledge during sex, has had his rape conviction changed to defilement by a Swiss court.

www.google.ie/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/man-remove-condom-sex-stealthing-no-conviction-rape-consent-switzerland-lausanne-a7729656.html%3famp

The CPS told The Sun Online that they could not comment on whether ‘stealthing’ is classed as rape because there hasn’t been a case tried here yet, so it’s unclear how the law would be interpreted.

The Ministry of Justice declined to give an official statement on the issue, but said that if any case were brought it would be up to the CPS and judiciary to determine if the act was criminal.

www.google.ie/amp/s/www.thesun.co.uk/living/3507103/is-stealthing-rape-top-lawyer-claims-secretly-taking-a-condom-off-during-sex-could-be-a-crime/amp/

Stick yes I think it's possible to look at any individual case objectively and come to your own conclusions, without victim blaming (if you believe there is in fact a victim).

The Jonny Depp example in my OP is a good one - the poster believes he threw the phone at his wife but said "if she didn't want to be hit she could've ducked" - no mention of it being an abhorrent thing for Depp to do though! And that's what grinds my gears. Some people will always find a way to put the onus on the woman.

"Woman lies about being on the pill, gets pregnant, man doesn't want this and it takes it's toll on his mental health and causes stress. I mean that isn't very nice now is it?"

No. it's not very nice. At all. Despicable behaviour.

But he could have used a condom. He does not have to carry and give birth to a baby, or have an abortion. He could, if he wanted to, walk away from the situation.

The woman could have used the numerous amounts of contraception they have. For men it is limited. It is the womans choice to carry and give birth

Woman lies about being on the pill, gets pregnant, man doesn't want this and it takes it's toll on his mental health and causes stress. I mean that isn't very nice now is it?

Of course it's not nice. But it's not rape and it's not assault.

If men choose to not take responsibility for their own contraception then they always run a risk of impregnating a woman (even if she is taking the pill). We are taught this in school it's very basic sex education. Therefore if he doesn't take responsibility for using his own contraception, he can't be altogether surprised when he does impregnate a woman. It is a result of his actions as well. And i can't believe anyone with half a brain could ever equate this to a physical assault which bears the risk of impregnating the victim.