To be sick of victim blaming on MN?

[CherryChasingDotMuncher]

I'm sick to the back teeth of reading victim blaming comments on here. Am I the only one who's noticed the tides turning on MN recently?

Heaven forbid women who've been through a trauma wear clothes from their actual wardrobe and don't buy a "victim outfit" to wear in public. It appears they're not a real victim unless they adhere to a certain set of behaviours.

That's just one thread today. I've seen comments recently about what sexual assault victims wear, how drunk they are. Yesterday people were equating raping a woman with a woman lying about taking a contraceptive pill (someone even said this was the same as rape) and not too long ago someone commented that it was Amber Heard's own fault that she got hit by the phone Jonny Depp threw at her because she didn't duck.

If you challenge these comments then you're often called a feminazi, an idiot or a man-hater.

I know this is kind of a TAAT (or several threads) but I'm beyond disappointed that a website predominantly for women would have so many people letting the side down and believing that other women are either lying until they can prove otherwise or that they deserve the abuse they get from men. And if that woman has ever displayed any sexual behaviour ever, then it's even worse.

Oh, I see, this is going well

I don't think they let you have sex in hospital

meh, who needs thier consent? it's their fault for having beds.

Mumof56 ODFOD

Yet again I'm going to disengage with you as you've succeeded in derailing the thread by making up things, fabricating what other people have said and dodging questions. I'm going to conclude you're a GF or that you are are able to understand basic English language, either way it's not good for this pointless discussion about you thinking that something that isn't assault, is assault, to go on.

If i lied to my husband, saying I was on the pill when I was not, and encouraged him to have sex with me so I could get pregnant then that is equivalent to him removing a condom mid sex.

Just because I have a fanny and he has a knob shouldn't make any difference. He wouldn't consent if he knew I was not on the pill.

Sex without consent is rape. UK law is outdated. Any sex between any people that is non consentual is rape.

You accuse me of misogyny. You have internal misandry.

It's really not phoney. One is an assault of the body, the other isn't. It's a terrible thing to do, but it's not on a par with rape. I am quite flabbergasted to find people think it is.

And your 'fanny and knob' do make a difference as rape happens with a penis.

Sexual consent and consent for other things are totally different. Not taking a pill does not break sexual consent, as it does not involve the act of sex.

And LOL at internal misandry, because the oh so prevalent matriarchy instilled it in me

Why would you feel lucky that someone does housework in the home they live in? Both peopleshouldpull their weight, it's not luck it's normal
Maybe lucky is the wrong word. Grateful or appreciative.
E.g. DH appreciates that I do the cleaning when he is out doing his hobby on a weekend. I appreciate that I go and do my hobby on an evening/work late and he has cooks tea ready for when I get in.

Neither of us are lucky to have someone actually do basic house stuff, but we both appreciate that neither of us had to do the lions share.

Yes in uk law rape only happens with a penis. This isn't a universal law and in my opinion is outdated.

Of course not taking the pill equals no consent. If the woman lies and the man consents because he believes she's on the pill then there is no real consent.

What about a man that lies that he's had the snip and the woman consents to sex but it turns out he lied?

Maisy I agree!

What about a man that lies that he's had the snip and the woman consents to sex but it turns out he lied?

It's not the same, as a condom is both parties taking responsibility for their contraception, a vasectomy is not.

Assault requires damage to the body. A woman not taking the pill has literally no effect on a man's body

The definition of rape includes "with a penis" because of the implications of passing on a STI or impregnating someone. And this is exactly why the term should be protected. Women can still be charged with sexual assault, but considering that very few women commit sexual assault (4% of sex crimes are committed by women) I disagree that the term 'rape' to be male-exclusive is outdated. When women commit sex crimes at nearly the same rate as men then I'll be inclined to agree with you.

I feel this "lying about taking the pill" argument is pointless as it's not now, never has been, and never will be, considered a violent crime - no matter how much you think it should be.

I do think you should have a think about the fact that you believe a woman not taking a pill is the exact same as someone (man or woman) having a foreign object (be it a body part or not) forced into their orifices.

I don't know if Im guilty of it at times. Like many on MN I do talk straight. But Im never aiming to be harsh

Im sick to the back teeth of reading victim blaming comments on here. Am I the only one who's noticed the tides turning on MN recently?

I've just now read post/thread thats absolutely shocked me in terms of what OP and her family are going through and the absolute harshness of some of the replies. I've commented on thread re why so fucking harsh, we all make mistakes the OP was upset and shocked and asking for help as a mum, not a berating. I think it went too far.

I know people say AIBU isn't the place for sensitive threads - I agree - but sometimes it really feels as if an OP was on the brink of leaping out of a window in despair then the harshies could send her over the edge (all metaphorically speaking)

Harsh is outweighing the people who will advise as well as they can, lately. Some people...would they talk to people like that in real life..I bet they wouldn't.

I hate victim blaming, but what I hate even more is those threads where you get slated for suggesting people take some personal responsibility for their lives.

shouldaknownbetter
Agreed.
Attacks of any type (sexual, physical, muggings etc) are the responsibility of the attacker.

I could go for my run through a high crime area alone at night, wearing a nice apple watch, phone in hand, headphones in, music loud etc but I don't. It wouldn't be my fault if I got attacked, but in the name of personal responsibility I would probably not make those choices to start with.

I was reading something recently about consent (can't find it now) which said something like: no one would consider it a sexual assault if e.g. a husband was cheating and his wife wouldn't have consented if she knew he was a cheat. Sorry, I didn't express that well but I hope it makes sense. Anyway I thought it was strange because actually in my experience it does feel like a violation. But it looks as if most people don't consider it to be sexual assault if one person lies in advance (e.g. about taking the pill / vasectomy, or being faithful) but it's considered sexual assault if one partner unilaterally moves the goalposts during sex (e.g. removing a condom). It all feels quite violating to me - I've experienced all of these things except lying about taking the pill. Sorry that got long.

I don't mind at all messages about personal safety, as long as they're not tinged with "it'll be your own fault if you're assaulted".

I somehow suspect those who take exception at being told not to walk home alone at 3am, will not be telling their kids that it's fine to do this!

The feminists took over and refused to allow ANY discussion."

I must have forgotten to pay my subscription- I haven't been sent my special electronic discussion stopper.

Cards the difference is that lying about a pill or being unfaithful doesn't involve a physical assault on the body. Breaking everyday consent is a very different ball game to breaking sexual consent (at the point of the sexual act), and that's the fundamental difference

On a slight tangent but I get annoyed at the excuses dished out by some posters.
I recently posted on a thread asking for advice where a poster wondered what was behind her dh sudden, strange behaviour. I , along with several other posters suggested that in my objective opinion he might be having by an affair.
Some posters jumped on me saying how I was probably wrong and why did I post that etc.
The poster can back, her dh had been having an affair and she now wanted advice on how best to deal with it.
The crap spouted by some posters excusing this man's behaviour was laughable.

YY Emily, like the Ines that go "my DH has suddenly made friends with a new woman who he meets for dinner 3 times a week and he also deletes her text messages and I'm not allowed to meet her" is often met with "I would hate it if my DH wouldn't let me make new friends. You sound EA" 🙄

See cherry I think there's some middle ground to be had because I read some threads and judging by what counts as an ok friendship, me and DH are both falling short of the MN friendship rules and we don't go through each others phones or social media.

Still MN is like life, there are the people who think anything goes, the people who think trust is having full access to phones and monitoring friendships and the vast majority of us in the middle.

Cherry I suppose what I find strange is that the difference in law doesn't reflect differences in experience or psychological trauma etc. Inevitably the law is a blunt instrument.

A few years ago Canada changed their laws to remove the category of rape. Ideologically it was believed that all sexual assaults are serious, and that assaults involving penetration weren't worse. Many feminists welcomed the change. But it led to fewer prosecutions and lighter sentencing.

So while I agree the law makes distinctions, it's not ideal and there are no easy solutions.

@cherry

You have some serious mental gymnastics going on there.

As a woman I can violate my husbands body autonomy by sticking his bits in me against his will, or by lying and using deceit to trick him into consenting.

Just because I am a woman shouldn't make any difference.

It really is easy - physical assault involves an assault on the physical body. Not taking the pill is not an assault of any kind.

I could never support rape being removed as a crime, and I think the proof is in the pudding when it shows fewer convictions and lighter sentences

Taking a condom off in secret doesn't involve an assault on the physical body. That 1mm think bit of rubber merely catches the semen

"As a woman I can violate my husbands body autonomy by sticking his bits in me against his will, or by lying and using deceit to trick him into consenting."

But you are not going to make him pregnant. You are unlikely to physically injure him.

You are sexually assaulting him. But you are not raping him. Just as a man is not raping a woman if he does not penetrate her with his penis.

Assault requires damage to the body

No it doesn't, touching a woman's skirt can count as assault.

Assault is defined as causing he victim to fear immediate actual bodily harm. It does not not require actual damage