Caster Semenya- how can I explain this to DH?

[AngeloMysterioso]

Watching the athletics on TV, and they had a little video and debate about Caster Semenya. DH who can be completely pig headed at the best of times says the girls competing against her are just bitter because they can't win. A debate ensues between us about it- he's saying it's essentially the same as average height basketball players complaining about tall men having an advantage because of their height, or white sprinters complaining that black sprinters have an advantage because of their musculature. He is absolutely insistent that it's basically the same thing. How the hell do I make him understand?!

I learnt a lot about women with XY chromosomes. Their bodies don't respond to testosterone; they are incapable of developing like males so the embryo keeps to its default biology which looks externally female. I've always assumed Semenya has this kind of condition. She is female b/c she can't be male. Her body doesn't respond to male hormones by developing like a male.

sportsscientists.com/thread/caster-semenya/

I think this is a good site for anyone wanting a bit more detail on a complex issue. I found it informative anyway. The author has followed things closely.

I think the Court of Arbitration for Sport has a duty to protect the category of women's sport or what's the point in having the category. It must act when it next rules. At the very least the maximum testosterone level ruling should be reinstated. It was very generous as it was and the articles on the site I've linked to go into this.

Reducing testosterone does not of course deal with the issue of any athlete having gone through male-type puberty with all the physical advantages that will confer (height, musculature, skeletal structure e.g. pelvis/femur angle, proportion of fast twitch fibres etc) even if testosterone levels are later lowered, but it's better than nothing.

Perhaps there could be separate medals for athletes with a sexual development disorder (and male to female trans for that matter). Not a separate race necessarily but separate medals.

OP why start a thread like this, to enable people to vent their unpleasant comments against one individual. Are you a journalist?

lljkk there are a number of sexual development conditions, some of which offer considerable athletic advantage. Copying and pasting from the sportsscientists site and an interview with someone called Joanna Harper who is a scientist/athlete/trans:

"There are a variety of intersex conditions or DSDs (differences of sexual development). The DSD that probably imparts the largest athletic advantage is called 5-alpha reductase deficiency or 5-ARD. Children born with 5-ARD have a Y chromosome, but have a deficiency in the enzyme that is used to convert testosterone to dihydrotestosterone or DHT. In turn, DHT is responsible for the development of external male genitalia, hence babies with 5-ARD are often assigned female gender at birth. After puberty, girls with 5-ARD have T in the low-normal male range, and hence have a huge athletic advantage over other women."

I wonder if Semenya has something like this.

Discussing fairness in women's sport is a valid topic bevelino.

I've always assumed she had (partial) AIS meaning she is genetically XY but her body is androgen insensitive. She would have looked more like an infant girl and been raised as such.

On my local children's hospital referral form
there's a tick sheet for either male, female or intersex. There's an international movement amongst endocrinologists, genetics and paeds surgeons to not assign gender to intersex children, to let them make decisions about their identity and surgery when older. Previously girls with clitoromegaly had perfectly healthy tissue resected to look more "normal" resulting in loss of sexual function. It's really not as simple as saying - they're Xy, let's raise them as boys. Especially with complete AIS when they will look exactly like other girls, will develop breast and are only found to have a shortened vagina and no uterus when they don't menstruate

And with complete AIS those girls will never look masculine (which is why I think Castor is partial AIS). They have limited body hair, (no androgen response) breasts, a vulva, clitoris and part of a vagina.

For those who say XY must equal man what would you tell these girls? You will always physically look like a woman, who've been raised as a woman but now you need to tell everyone you're a man?

There is only a women's category for most sports because men are naturally/biologically stronger/faster (due in large part, from what I understand, to high levels of testosterone). If everyone competed against each other, in the vast majority of sports, women wouldn't get much of a look in. So the line has to be drawn. It appears, due to investigations and her high levels of testosterone, that Caster Semenya is possibly intersex so it is difficult to put her categorically in one sex but it has clearly been agreed by the IAAF that she is female.

I don't know what the scientific studies say exactly but given that men are generally stronger/faster due to testosterone, it is an advantage (Caster has supposedly dramatically improved her timings since the testosterone rules were lifted). I can understand the upset from other female athletes. I don't understand why the limit was lifted. For those who argue testosterone doesn't make a difference then Caster would perform just as well without the limit. For those who argue it's the same as someone being taller, I don't think it is since the division of sport due to sex is based in large part on a hormonal difference in the two sexes leading to one being stronger/faster. Levels of testosterone are inherently mixed up with how we become male or female. Yes there are shades of grey in between but for sport there has to be a line (unless we create a new category between).

Btw I am not saying any of this is Caster's fault or denying she is female, she just has an advantage that is directly related to the reason why we have two separate categories for the sexes. Many would therefore argue this is unfair and she should have her testosterone levels kept artificially down.

This is not just about fairness, but also safety.

We accept that in many contact sports it is not safe for girls and boys, women and men to compete against one another.

I feel for CS. If she wants to run I don't see why she shouldn't be allowed to.

The IAAF need to make their minds up as to which course of action is appropriate and stick with it.

She's a talented athlete and this fact seems lost because of this ridiculous fencentre sitting the authorities are doing.

Fence sitting

Agree with GetAHaircutCarl. And Paula Radcliffe, if she had been able to continue... It's all very well in a running race, but imagine if CS had chosen boxing as her sport - no one would have wanted to compete against her.

The effects of testosterone at puberty do more than make someone look a bit manly and steer then towards fancying women. Testosterone causes bigger shoulders, broader backs, increased core strength. These cannot be put "back in the box" with reducing drugs any more than one's height can be lessened after growth.

Dinahmorris great post. It's frustrating that many people on the thread are unable to engage with the issue on a deeper, more abstract level. It is possible to have empathy for CS and see the bigger picture but I have my head in my hands that most on this thread don't acknowledge any posts which don't affirm their naive viewpoint.

bevelino because whilst this is an unusual case with quite a few grey areas, this issue in general is not going away and only becoming more of a problem.
As a competitive runner I don't want to be stood on the start line next to a woman who was a man last week and still has testes and a male level of testosterone in their system.
It's why men and women have different competitions (accept some horse stuff), otherwise let's all lump them in together and not bother and the men can win every time.

That's a really balanced sensible post TabyMooMoo. You've said what I'd have said if I was cleverer

I agree with a PP that the categories should be "Open" and "Women". I believe that people who have or had testes should not compete in womens sport. To me it is not so much like a tall basketball player or Michael Phelps' big feet, and more like allowing a middleweight boxer into the lightweight division.
In effect this would rule intersex people out of athletics as they are vanishingly unlikely to be able to win against men with normal sensitivity to testosterone. But I think barring a very small percentage of the population from womens sport is better than effectively handicapping the majority of XX ovary-laden testes deficient competitors.
It's not just about CS- if this was the only case it would not matter quite so much. It's more about what another PP pointed out: intersexuality is quite rare but it would be still worth governments screening populations of schoolchildren for it then slotting any intersex child with a modicum of athletic potential into an intensive training programme so they can hoover up womens medals in future Olympics. I could see a future where if you haven't got testes- internal or external- then you're going nowhere in athletics, rowing, boxing, weightlifting, etc.

Times have changed. I remember aeons ago watching the East German women athletes and everyone going, "But they're blokes!" as a beefy individual stomped into the discus ring etc. Now it is a bit Emperor's New Clothes in that no one would dare point out the obvious.

Younger people - eg one of my teens who was watching - was adamant that CS was quite entitled to run if they were deemed to be a woman. The definition of "woman" in this teen's case was rather fluid and included an athlete's self-perception. If this is the future mindset then I think women's sport as such is probably doomed.

Is CS's case much different to a gymnast with a collagen disorder which enables them to adopt and maintain positions and manoeuvres that other gymnasts would find virtually impossible? No amount of training might allow competitors without this genetic disorder such an advantage. If CS is biologically female I think she should be permitted to compete against other females, just as OPs DH states 7' 4" basketball players should be allowed to compete against rivals who may be a foot shorter.

Sport science article very informative. Thanks BlindYeo.

It would have been sensible for CAS to maintain the very generous testosterone limits whilst they looked at competitive advantage. After all if the advantage was 'only' 1%, then it would have little effect whereas if it turns out to be more, then reimposing the limit would mean competitors would have won medals etc in the meantime and you have all the hoohah of reawarding them to someone else because of their messing about which is very off and makes the issue even more emotional.

Levels of testosterone in the blood alone do not take into account body changes that have already taken place and are not reversible.

Lynsey Sharp was universally slated for speaking out about Semenya after the Rio800m final (although I notice the BBC appeared in her favour tonight).

I don't agree with her argument, but I might have had a smidge more sympathy if she'd been beaten in a photo finish on the line by Castor, but she finished 6th in a field of 8, conveniently ignoring the other four athletes who beat her.

Regardless of what I think on the CS issue, I thought it came across as petulant and/or was used to deflect from her own poor performance.

Hmm not so sure about the other two on the podium of the Olympics 800m. Lynsey Sharp was always going to be on a loser as she sounded petulant, and CS is by all accounts a very nice person who trains hard.

From the study that will probably impact IAAF next move:
...Among the 1332 female observations,
44 showed an fT concentration >29.4pmol/L.
24 female athletes showed a T concentration >3.08nmol/L which
has been calculated to represent the 99th percentile in a previous
normative study in elite female athletes. Among these 24
individuals, nine were diagnosed with a condition of hyperandrogenic
disorder of sex development (DSD), nine were later
found to have been doping, and six athletes were impossible to
classify...

www.iaaf.org/download/download?filename=66958208-d45a-480b-995c-cbdf36ca5af2.pdf&urlSlug=bermon-et-al-bjsm-2017

Well it is also tough for athletes from poor countries who don't have the advantages our athletes get from government and lottery funding. Maybe we should stop all the support and let them do it by natural ability?

I think it is impossible to make it a level playing field, height, genetics, parental support, financial support how on earth do you make that fair for everyone?

I think sport takes it all too far, how can it be accepted as normal that some male athletes would take drugs to reduce their testosterone levels so that they can compete in women's sport? Sport should be about health not people taking risks with their health.

bambini an athlete with complete AIS could have testosterone a million times normal and it wouldn't be advantageous as the body can't use it.

Hello all,
Thanks to everyone who has reported this thread, we have made several deletions (including some that just quoted the posts, sorry about that).
We are keen to let the conversation about women's sports continue, of course, but any mis-gendering of Caster Semenya will have to go.