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Original poster

Caster Semenya- how can I explain this to DH?

318 replies

AngeloMysterioso · 07/08/2017 21:39

Watching the athletics on TV, and they had a little video and debate about Caster Semenya. DH who can be completely pig headed at the best of times says the girls competing against her are just bitter because they can't win. A debate ensues between us about it- he's saying it's essentially the same as average height basketball players complaining about tall men having an advantage because of their height, or white sprinters complaining that black sprinters have an advantage because of their musculature. He is absolutely insistent that it's basically the same thing. How the hell do I make him understand?!

OP posts:
RiverTam · 08/08/2017 12:48

How can you misgender someone who's wife refers to them as their husband and who doesn't appear to have clarified the point themselves? I'm asking as a genuine point, not to be goady. Yes, Caster competes in women's sports, but as we all know, you do not need to be female to do so these days.

By deleting, you are making a bit of a nonsense of the debate, surely.

BoysofMelody · 08/08/2017 12:56

How can you misgender someone who's wife refers to them as their husband and who doesn't appear to have clarified the point themselves? I'm asking as a genuine point, not to be goady.

What the fuck does what her wife calls her have anything to do with it? It could be for any number of reasons, I occasionally call my wife my lady-husband.

Papafran · 08/08/2017 12:59

How can you misgender someone who's wife refers to them as their husband and who doesn't appear to have clarified the point themselves? I'm asking as a genuine point, not to be goady. Yes, Caster competes in women's sports, but as we all know, you do not need to be female to do so these days

Really??? I have seen nothing about her wife calling her her husband. Where did you get this from? I have watched a documentary where they interviewed both CS and her mother who confirmed that she has always been raised as a woman and sees herself as a woman.

So yes, by calling her 'he', you are misgendering her. You have no proof that she is a man other than that she doesn't fit your stereotypical view of what a woman is.

dadshere · 08/08/2017 13:01

She has no womb or ovaries but she does possess testes. This description sounds like it fits a male to me. It would be interesting to know what her genotype is XX, XY, XXY or something else

BoysofMelody · 08/08/2017 13:05

She has no womb or ovaries but she does possess testes. This description sounds like it fits a male to me

For the umpteenth time, there is no evidence for this beyond internet rumours. I wish people would stop peddling utter bullshit and supposition as fact

Papafran · 08/08/2017 13:05

She has no womb or ovaries but she does possess testes

Never been verified. If she is a man, how do you explain her complete absence of facial hair for example?

NerrSnerr · 08/08/2017 13:09

This highlights how people believe fake news and how far it travels doesn't it? So many people repeating the same things as if they're fact without any evidence to back it up.

dadshere · 08/08/2017 13:10

Her sex test results were leaked, and were widely available on the internet for some time.

Papafran- if facial hair indicated masculine, then my mother, sister and me are all male!

MNHQ
YetAnotherHelenMumsnet · 08/08/2017 13:13

Hi there,
We can see the point you are making, RiverTam, but you can probably also see ours. We're just trying to steer a course that can allow a solid debate about what's fair in women's sport without being called upon all the time to intervene.

Alyosha · 08/08/2017 13:19

Caster has been treated like absolute shit. She is a woman, has been raised as female and is a woman. Yes she naturally produces more testosterone - that's not her fault and is simply a natural variation.

It's no more/less unfair than some runners having longer legs than others.

It's totally different from someone born male, raised as male deciding to become a woman and then run against women.

Papafran · 08/08/2017 13:20

We can see the point you are making, RiverTam, but you can probably also see ours

You see her point? Someone who was raised a woman and identifies as a woman should have to put up with a bunch of idiots from the internet calling her 'he' because she doesn't conform to what they think a woman looks like? I am afraid I don't see RiverTam's point at all. Caster has never said she identifies as a man, so why else would you call her he?

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 08/08/2017 13:26

Caster has never said she identifies as a man, so why else would you call her he?

To be goady. No matter what they say

We can see the point you are making, RiverTam

Sorry but I really can't.

powershowerforanhour · 08/08/2017 13:26

Yes Caster has been treated like shit. And yes it is totally different to considering MTT people in women's sport. But if (supposition as no test results public) she is intersex, has XY chromosomes and is producing lots of extra testosterone from internal testes, is it OK and fair to the others to continue to allow her to compete in women's races?

dadshere · 08/08/2017 13:26

Alyosha, not really. Caster was raised as a girl, we do not know why the parents chose this route, but they did. This does not change the fact that biologically caster semenya is probably closer to being male than female. This means that the physical traits that give men an advantage are going to have an impact on her sporting ability. It is an advantage which could help to end women's sport. If this trend continues, the only people who will win medals at the olympics will possess male sexual characteristics. Does this sound fair to you? Eventually the line will be removed and there will be no women's or men's competiitons just a free for all.

RiverTam · 08/08/2017 13:28

Thanks HelenMN - however, I think people need to understand that not being offended isn't a sacrosanct human right, and it's very difficult to debate things without this constant fear of offending someone, somewhere. I haven't actually called Caster 'he', everyone is slagging off everyone else's sources, and given the lack of clarification (Caster is a public figure competing in a public arena) this debate will continue to happen.

Aloysha yes, it's totally different but the official response has been to make them one and the same. And there are peopl out there who's regular medication will be in the banned list and so they are unable to compete - unfortunate, and bad luck for them but is the answer to change the rules and alert definitions to suit, or to just accept that not everyone can do what they want to do?

grannytomine · 08/08/2017 13:33

Aloysha yes, it's totally different but the official response has been to make them one and the same. And there are peopl out there who's regular medication will be in the banned list and so they are unable to compete - unfortunate, and bad luck for them but is the answer to change the rules and alert definitions to suit, or to just accept that not everyone can do what they want to do? So should women just accept they aren't the fastest/strongest or whatever and that they won't be able to compete? Bad luck for them that men, generally, are bigger stronger faster or whatever.

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 08/08/2017 13:33

And there are peopl out there who's regular medication will be in the banned list

Not necessarily true. It's all to do with declaring.

reetgood · 08/08/2017 13:34

I believe someone on the post race discussion made the point that no athletes are 'normal'. They are by definition flukes of nature that allow them to compete at elite level. I don't see the castor semenya is any different. I can see that the hormone issue becomes difficult because of doping.

She got the bronze because she won a good tactical race, imo and used her reserve of power on the home straight.

This obsession with biological sex is really insulting and incorrect. She's clearly a woman, with hyperandrogynism. Having known a woman with a chromosomal coding problem, a) none of you would be able to tell this b) insisting she was treated as a man, excluded or otherwise would be wrong. She doesn't have functioning ovaries, does that make her a man. Don't be daft.

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 08/08/2017 13:35

She got the bronze because she won a good tactical race, imo and used her reserve of power on the home straight.

She is also the 800m specialist so has that extra speed. Muir isn't.

reetgood · 08/08/2017 13:37

@piglet yes that too! You could see that Muir was really having to dig deep. It was a good race and I think there was nothing Muir should have done differently, but she lacked that final kick to hold up against semenya.

RiverTam · 08/08/2017 13:37

This situation highlights the main problem with identity politics - does subjective feeling trump objective reality? Is Mowgli a wolf because he was raised with wolves and believes he's one? No. But that's what identity politics would have us believe.

In order to create a level playing field for a tiny number of intersex athletes, 50% of athletes have been thrown under the bus. For those saying how mean and horrid posters are - what do you call that situation?

reetgood · 08/08/2017 13:43

@rivertam

She's not intersex.
She finished with bronze, and was by no means in front of the pack.
Hormonal and chromosomal abnormalities re sex already exist. It's not about subjectivity. The woman I knew WAS a woman. She just happened to find out around puberty that some coding issues meant she'd not start puberty naturally, and was infertile. It's often only at puberty that these rare variations come to light. A hormonal issue like semenya's would only have become apparent at puberty. I think people have got confused about trans issue with other conditions.

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 08/08/2017 13:44

This situation highlights the main problem with identity politics - does subjective feeling trump objective reality? Is Mowgli a wolf because he was raised with wolves and believes he's one? No. But that's what identity politics would have us believe.

Nothing like a ridiculous analogy is there Hmm

terrylene · 08/08/2017 13:49

She is a woman, has been raised as female and is a woman. Yes she naturally produces more testosterone - that's not her fault and is simply a natural variation.

If you read the reasoning behind the limit on testosterone that was briefly in place, you will see that they chose this as it was way above any natural variation of women, added a more to make sure that no unseen natural variation might be excluded, then more for just in case. Above number is in the men range, and over this is in average man range. So anyone needing to take meds to reduce testosterone to the level of 10 will not be in natural variation territory.

RiverTam · 08/08/2017 13:50

I'm querying people saying that because Caster was raised as a girl and believes she's a girl, that automatically means she is. Other things may make that so, but I don't think this statement does. But I'm talking about identity politics in general. Belief is not the same as fact. But the facts are rather unclear in this particular case (though blindingly obvious in others - see Fallon Fox, for example).