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Caster Semenya- how can I explain this to DH?

318 replies

AngeloMysterioso · 07/08/2017 21:39

Watching the athletics on TV, and they had a little video and debate about Caster Semenya. DH who can be completely pig headed at the best of times says the girls competing against her are just bitter because they can't win. A debate ensues between us about it- he's saying it's essentially the same as average height basketball players complaining about tall men having an advantage because of their height, or white sprinters complaining that black sprinters have an advantage because of their musculature. He is absolutely insistent that it's basically the same thing. How the hell do I make him understand?!

OP posts:
Tannyfastic · 07/08/2017 22:02

Gutted for Muir.
It's wrong.

2rebecca · 07/08/2017 22:02

I think the men's races should be called "open" races and intersex and trans competitors can compete there, and any xx women who fancy their chances. Women's events should be for XX phenotypically female women, with testosterones below 5, none of this 8 nonsense or whatever the stupidly high maximum is for "women".

HoneyIshrunktheBiscuit · 07/08/2017 22:03

She is a woman.

DerelictWreck · 07/08/2017 22:03

She identifies as a woman, but has no vagina, ovaries or womb, only an internal pair of undescended testes. She also has a same sex marriage

I'm sorry, WHAT.

Are you arguing that her having a same sex marriage is somehow in the cons column of being a woman?!

MaryTheCanary · 07/08/2017 22:03

A large part of the reason for establishing a women's category in sports in the first place was to ensure that girls had role models to look up to in sport, and that girls' sporting endeavors were encouraged in the first place.

If women's sporting medals start going mostly to intersex/trans, it is possible (not a certainty, mind you) that this may start to have a chilling effect on girls' and young women's sport. Because girls won't see as many role models whom they can identify with and will be discouraged from going "seriously" into these kinds of sports, and because governments may be less interested in putting money behind the sporting efforts of young people who have vaginas and ovaries--at least not if you are talking about running and shot putting and so on. For those sports, it will make more economic sense to put resources into scouting for intersex and trans talent. Biological women will continue to dominate things like synchronized swimming and gymnastics, and it will make sense for governments to put money into these areas for girls, so over time we may see a stronger movement of women and girls into ornamental sports and away from things like running.

Nothing is a certainly, but anyone who thinks the above couldn't happen is naive IMO. The reason why Team GB did quite well in the Olympics in the last couple of sessions was largely because The Powers That Be in Great Britain had developed a ruthless policy of directing funding towards sports where they had calculated that Team GB was in with a chance, and cutting off funding for those sports which they thought were unlikely to bring home any medals. Other countries will have taken note.

I feel bad for Caster Semenya, who has been dealt a very difficult hand in life. I also feel concerned about potential collateral damage to women's and girls' sport.

StillDrivingMeBonkers · 07/08/2017 22:03

Has this been confirmed? And if that is the case, how is she, biologically, a woman?

IAAF and South African Athletic examined and tested her, reports were issued. It's all out here on the web should you choose to read up.

eatingonlyapples · 07/08/2017 22:04

There is a great deal of speculation but nothing has been officially released for privacy reasons.

She deserves her privacy. Clearly, as she has been allowed for the last 5+ years to compete as a woman, she is a woman.

JayneAusten · 07/08/2017 22:04

It's a tough one because on the one hand it's awful that she should have to tell the media and public anything about her body, sex organs or chromosomes - but on the other hand, maybe clarity would be better. I personally would draw a line depending on what chromosomes she has. If her chromosomal makeup is female then she's a female who has developed differently in utero. If she has male chromosomes then she's an underdeveloped man. My suspicion is that actually things point towards her being more biologically male and that she was raised female due to the outward look of her genitalia but that then does raise concerns about her racing against women.

iseenodust · 07/08/2017 22:04

She is a woman. It's a grey area but as was said you cannot take away her right to compete. I think it's like some of the sprinters have 'fast twitch muscle' (think that's the phrase). It's a biological bonus but not artificially created.

DH wanted to know if anyone has ever raised it in other sports eg boxing or hammer throw because you never hear anyone has been tested in those arenas.

NamedyChangedy · 07/08/2017 22:04

Kipyegong and Simpson are doing their victory laps now, and are undeniably women. It rather weakens your position, doesn't it? Your DH has a valid point.

Laura Muir lost because she ran a strategically poor race today - it was nothing to do with testosterone levels.

RiverTam · 07/08/2017 22:05

earing it's really not good. Yes, it is of benefit to the tiny minority of intersex athletes, but what it also means is that any male who reduces his testosterone via female hormones to a level that is still 3 x that of a woman, he will be allowed to compete in female events and races. Which I can totally see the Russians, for example, going for this with their B list male athletes.

With Caster - I don't know. Not everyone can compete due to, for example, medication they are on which might give them an advantage, I'm not sure if the same can't be said for an intersex athlete. If she has a Y chromosome, I really can't see that she is female.

eatingonlyapples · 07/08/2017 22:06

Michael Phelps has huge feet, huge hands, and very long arms - an arm span that's more than his height. These characteristics give him a unique advantage above other swimmers. Caster Semenya has similar advantages. No one's saying Phelps didn't deserve all those gold medals.

DerelictWreck · 07/08/2017 22:07

Can we all just pause a moment and realise that despite what you may or may not think of Caster being female, the IAAF has concluded that there is insufficient evidence to prove that higher levels of testosterone in women help their athletic performance AT ALL.

It's a moot point!

And OP, I agree with your partner. It's a physical trait she was born with and therefore is as much a part of the playing field as athletes born with height, speed, or even talent - dumb luck.

eatingonlyapples · 07/08/2017 22:07

RiverTam lol god forbid you meet any trans people irl (which you definitely have, and yes some of those women may have had Y chromosomes). Joss Whedon would hate you using his character's name btw.

JamesBlonde1 · 07/08/2017 22:08

Well there's a fucking surprise. Muir's bronze down the river.

CS should not be able to run in the women's race. If there's no category to race in, then choose a different profession.

CS should not have been permitted to pursue this as far as she has. Not the fault of CS but life's shit sometimes.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall in the GB Muir/coach changing room.

histinyhandsarefrozen · 07/08/2017 22:10

Dh and I had exactly the same discussion.

I thought she was intersex?!

It's tough for caster but yes, it will be v tough for women's sports if this -raised testerone levels- isn't clarified.

The issue - m or f? - has been raised internationally in lots of sports, I thought, particularity weight lifting, cross country, footy.

Singling out particular athletes for sex-testing doesn't seem fair though.

2rebecca · 07/08/2017 22:10

If you have male phsyiology and essentially a male body it will give you advantages in sport though. If there is to be women's sport then it should be for XX women with female sex organs and physiology. Anyone else should be racing with the men, otherwise women's sport is meaningless and talented female athletes should give up.
It's sad Caster was raised as the wrong sex but that shouldn't disadvantage female athletes, Caster should find a different career that doesn't involve what I see as cheating.

DerelictWreck · 07/08/2017 22:11

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DilbyGlipob · 07/08/2017 22:11

I agree with those that are saying the chromosomes should decide. If she is biologically a woman and has a naturally occurring hormonal advantage, so be it.

HoneyIshrunktheBiscuit · 07/08/2017 22:12

The results of her 'gender tests' have never been released to the public. We actually dont know what their results are.

What we do know if she was born and raised as a woman. She has lived her life as a woman. She was subjected to tests about her gender without her knowledge or consent.

The IAAF have said she can run in the women's race. They know more than we do.

She is a woman. I think it is horrendous that so many 'feminists' are rallying against someone who was raised and socialised as a female and has been as much subjected to the Patricachy as the rest of us.

Papafran · 07/08/2017 22:14

Well there's a fucking surprise. Muir's bronze down the river

She didn't run fast enough. Are you going to start saying we should have racially segregated races too because black runners from sub-saharan africa have been proven to have a physiological advantage over other races? No? Thought not.

She has never run anywhere close to male 1500 metre times. Surely if she was really a man, she would be miles and miles ahead of female athletes. And she would have, y'know, won gold this time.

HoneyIshrunktheBiscuit · 07/08/2017 22:15

It has never been confirmed that she is intersex. It is all speculation on the part of the media and other athletes.

JamesBlonde1 · 07/08/2017 22:15

Derelict you're allowed an opinion but how terribly rude of you. You're the ignorant one.

I'm more concerned with the standard and quality of the whole of women's sport, not the rights of ONE person. ONE person who affects that and could be the tip of the iceberg.

RiverTam · 07/08/2017 22:16

eating women don't have Y chromosomes. Trans women are exactly that - trans women. Not women. But I'm not getting into that debate with you on a thread about intersex, which has absolutely nothing to do with trans people, apart from that ruling benefitting males who wish to compete in female competition, which would include trans women.

MaidOfStars · 07/08/2017 22:16

Again, I'll ask for a source for CS's medical records because I've never seen anything remotely official. And I've spent too much time looking on previous occasions.

someone who was raised and socialised as a female and has been as much subjected to the Patricachy as the rest of us
Complete red herring in this context. She may have been subject to the Patriarchy by dint if what's between her legs, but this is not a competition of social achievement, it is one of physical achievement, and one where biological sex matters.

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