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Caster Semenya- how can I explain this to DH?

318 replies

AngeloMysterioso · 07/08/2017 21:39

Watching the athletics on TV, and they had a little video and debate about Caster Semenya. DH who can be completely pig headed at the best of times says the girls competing against her are just bitter because they can't win. A debate ensues between us about it- he's saying it's essentially the same as average height basketball players complaining about tall men having an advantage because of their height, or white sprinters complaining that black sprinters have an advantage because of their musculature. He is absolutely insistent that it's basically the same thing. How the hell do I make him understand?!

OP posts:
bambambini · 07/08/2017 23:39

Can we all just pause a moment and realise that despite what you may or may not think of Caster being female, the IAAF has concluded that there is insufficient evidence to prove that higher levels of testosterone in women help their athletic performance AT ALL.

So why have the set limits for testosterone in female sports if it makes no difference anyway?

BabychamSocialist · 07/08/2017 23:43

Jesus, there are some horrible people on this thread. How can you still deny that she's a woman and allowed to compete? Presumably you know more than various medical professionals and athletic bodies?

Fromrussiawithdove · 07/08/2017 23:44

Bluegreenyellow by your logic should we ban gymnast from competing who develop/age slower than then an average person. The reason they have age limits in gymnastics is due to young gymnast having a massive advantage due to them being more flexible, smaller and agile. with things like semenya the iaaf will just see it as a gift and not something she should be excluded for. I know she has a big advantage but a lot of people in other sports do aswell.

Mollyboom · 07/08/2017 23:44

Cuir, aside from Cs the other two athletes are female. Not perhaps what society regards as stereotypically feminine but there is nothing to suggest they were not born female.

2rebecca · 07/08/2017 23:47

Maybe those of us classed as horrible are the women who care about and compete in women's sport and see the issue as more important than one African woman whose male chromosome profile wasn't picked up early enough having to leave sport.
I find it depressing so few women seem to care that people with Y chromosomes are increasingly allowed to compete as women reducing the opportunities for women. There is little enough women's sport in the media any way. It isn't just testosterone levels. Male pelvises and musculature are also different.
There are lots of career paths for people with a Y chromosome who identify as female but competing in women's sport shouldn't be one of them.

bluegreenyellow · 07/08/2017 23:51

Fromrussiawithdove the facts are they allow what is a biological male to race in a female race and they dont allow children in the Olympic gymnastics is because of child safety

cuirderussie · 07/08/2017 23:52

Molly that information would be private anyway. You could say the same thing about Caster. They won't be affected like Caster was in 2009 because the rules have changed.

Can people stop popping up to say how we're mean horrible people for discussing the IAAF rules' implications for women's sport? It's really tedious.

Fromrussiawithdove · 07/08/2017 23:52

Rebecca there isn't a lot of black people swimming in the olympics, there isnt enough white people doing the 100m. That's just the way it is. It's not even like sports is infested with people like semenya and even if there is what is it saying to people that have the same problem like semenya. Ow sorry your not a true female like the other athletes. Like someone said before in her biography she has been bullied about his for most of her life. For us to just stop her from competing would be saying that them bullies are right and she's not a woman.

PurpleDaisies · 07/08/2017 23:52

the facts are they allow what is a biological male to race in a female race

Those "facts" are nothing like as factual as you're making out here. I haven't seen any reputable evidence of the sort.

quencher · 07/08/2017 23:55

Rebecca there isn't a lot of black people swimming in the olympics I think with time that is going to change. The change has started happening and it won't be long.

Fromrussiawithdove · 07/08/2017 23:56

Blue yellow green it's not just due to child safety! they have junior gymnastics contest. If you look it up online. younger gymnast have an advantage, tell me how old was Nadia when she got all 10s in gymnastics because according to the rules today she wouldn't be able to compete due to her age, you should also look at her performance as she got older.

bluegreenyellow · 07/08/2017 23:56

male 'a person bearing an X and Y chromosome pair in the cell nuclei and normally having a penis, scrotum, and testicles, and developing hair on the face at adolescence; a boy or man.' x and y chromozone yes testicles yes developing hair on the face yes
female
'a person bearing two X chromosomes in the cell nuclei and normally having a vagina, a uterus and ovaries, and developing at puberty a relatively rounded body and enlarged breasts, and retaining a beardless face; a girl or woman.'
two x chromozones no uterus no relatively rounded body no enlarged breasts no beardless face no

PurpleDaisies · 07/08/2017 23:58

The word "normally" is important in your definitions there blue.

JustGiveMeTwoMinutes · 07/08/2017 23:59

If she has Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome then she will have XY chromosomes but be 'clearly a woman' according to the intersex society of North America.

Having read up about the various intersex conditions I feel she should be respected as a woman. It is not the same situation as the transom an weightlifter etc at all

Fromrussiawithdove · 08/08/2017 00:00

a person bearing two X chromosomes in the cell nuclei and normally having a vagina

Normally which means not every person with a an XX

Shamoo · 08/08/2017 00:00

@cuirderussie: It's also really tedious having to read pages and pages of poorly informed, spiteful bigatory.
And yes I have played female sport to a high level. Although I'm also gay, which based on some of the posts here probably means I shouldn't compete either.

StrangeLookingParasite · 08/08/2017 00:06

As far as I'm concerned, if she has 2 Y chromosomes and a vagina, she a woman and should be allowed to compete as such.

Oh dear, LakieLady, biology's not for you, then?

bluegreenyellow · 08/08/2017 00:07

a person bearing two X chromosomes in the cell nuclei and normally having a vagina

Normally which means not every person with a an XX
no it means they normally have a vagina ect not normally have two x chromozones thats not what the word normally is referring to

PurpleDaisies · 08/08/2017 00:09

no it means they normally have a vagina etc not normally have two x chromosomes thats not what the word normally is referring to

Exactly. Normally as in not every person who is female has a vagina, rounded body, uterus etc.

Boulshired · 08/08/2017 00:17

I have no concerns over body parts but the benefits of testosterone. It would be better if this could be discussed without naming of individuals but that would be impossible. Women's sports was created because of the physical disadvantage of women and why women's and not men's sports have the history of gender questioning and some very unfortunate history in the quest to confirm with Caster being to subject to this.

Morphene · 08/08/2017 00:31

Your DH is right. All professional athletes are genetic outliers, there is no point getting upset that one is more of an outlier in a slightly different direction than another.

Yes it might seem unfair for people in a race to feel like one of the other athletes has an advantage they can't compete with no matter how hard they train...but that could describe anyone running against Bolt in the last 12 years (until now!). He used to talk of eating chicken wings and showing up late for training - and is definitely a total freak of nature.

Anyway, its only sport - noone is owed a living as a professional sportsperson or I would be being paid to lumber my short and hopelessly inflexible body of a high jump bar as we speak.

Boulshired · 08/08/2017 00:49

I have noticed the examples of super human qualities are usually male like Bolt and Phelps, I like to hear of the female athletes with super abilities that their times and records are as good as the men's. Strangely when they have come reasonably close but still would never make the final, it is usually with a strong suspicion of performance enhancing drugs such as testosterone.

dinahmorris · 08/08/2017 01:20

The key to all this is realising that women's sport is an artificial category and what that means in terms of sport. Sport itself is pretty artificial - all the rules are essentially made up. Why are football pitches a set length? Why exactly 11 players per team? Why is one person allowed to touch the ball with hand, and only in a particular area? Sport, almost by definition, is artificial.

There are lots of artificial categories we accept easily - we have a 400m when the fastest person is clearly the 100m champion, and have different weight categories is boxing for example. The boundaries can be fluid, but it is imperative that we accept they are artificial and recognise that the question is about there to draw the (artificial) line. Comparisons to Usain Bolt having faster reactions don't help at all - because we don't have separate categories for those with faster reaction times. We are dealing with one, single line in the sand - bringing in others just muddies the waters.

If we agree that having an artificial category of "women's sport" is important (and I personally think it is) the question is then simple - who counts as a woman when we are talking about physical competition? Hearing individual stories is really difficult, but it isn't possible to please everyone. It is pretty utilitarian, but I do believe in the greatest good for the greatest number in this instance. IMO, it should be simply genetic. Women's sport is, very simply, for those who have XX chromosomes. Anyone else shouldn't be included. It is simple, clear and makes no moral judgement. But I do feel this is something that is becoming increasingly muddled. It is all part of a wider (and far more complex) question though - what is a woman?

In addition, I don't trust the world sporting bodies so "IAAF say it's okay" doesn't wash with me. I am a huge fan of sport, but the way they deal with drug cheats (Justin Gatlin for example) mean that I simply don't trust their judgement.

Choccywoccyhooha · 08/08/2017 01:32

Semenya is a woman. She has been put through many invasive and insensitive tests to prove this. If we are going to start stipulating which women are seen as "womanly" enough to be seen as actual women then we are on very dangerous ground. Particularly so if we, as at least one hideous comment here suggests, were to start saying that gay women aren't "woman" enough.

dinahmorris · 08/08/2017 01:40

choccy, can define what you mean by "woman"? Obviously 'attracted to men' is bullshit, but if you genuinely believe that Semenya is a woman you presumably have a good definition of 'woman' to hand. I don't (personally) understand why xx chromosomal testing would be invasive tbh - surely it is just a simple matter of taking some blood (which is done routinely for dope testing).