Caster Semenya- how can I explain this to DH?

[AngeloMysterioso]

Watching the athletics on TV, and they had a little video and debate about Caster Semenya. DH who can be completely pig headed at the best of times says the girls competing against her are just bitter because they can't win. A debate ensues between us about it- he's saying it's essentially the same as average height basketball players complaining about tall men having an advantage because of their height, or white sprinters complaining that black sprinters have an advantage because of their musculature. He is absolutely insistent that it's basically the same thing. How the hell do I make him understand?!

Humans, as well as some other organisms, can have a chromosomal arrangement that is contrary to their phenotypic sex; for example, XX males or XY females (see androgen insensitivity syndrome)

The word "syndrome" is the clue here. This is not natural variation along some sort of sex continuum - what is being discussed in the quote are abnormalities in the same way that (to use an earlier example) people born with six toes does not mean that humans can't be described as having 5 toes.

power I read it was due to a Spanish athlete in the 80's failing the chromosome test and refusing to stop competing. She was apparently outed as intersex but made a formal complaint on grounds of having AIS, arguing her high testosterone levels did not confer an unfair competitive advantage. If I understand the history right, the IAAF bowed to pressure not to sex test everyone but does do testosterone testing and can then start individual investigations. I guess newer systems try not to discriminate against XY individuals with AIS (androgen insensitivity) but still protect the women's sport category from ineligible competitors.

Firesuit for a foetus to develop as male it needs a Y chromosone with something called and SRY gene on it, I'm no expert, but as far as I know if the SRY isn't working the person can develop as a woman, but it is exceptionally rare for that woman to be have a uterus and be able to give birth.

Females with SRY mutations are anatomically OK, apart from lack of mature ovaries (which causes effects on secondary sexual development at puberty).

And can become a mother via donated eggs.

Caster aside, the debate over gender is all so arbitrary. There are hundreds of factors that give athletes advantages in their sport; why aren't we talking about heart size or lung capacity? Paula Radcliffe for instance was born with enormous lungs, and a heart twice the size of an average woman's. She arguably has much more than a 1.8% advantage.

On a separate note I also remember seeing & reading Lyndsey Sharp's whining in Rio and like many thought that there was something quite distasteful about the way she referred to 'them'.

You are right, gender is arbitrary made up bullshit. Let's throw it away, shall we?

Okay then, how best to separate sport in the most fair manner, hmm? I know along sex lines? Does biology work? Yes? Great.

@NauticalDisaster that's actually not at all what I said. Not that gender is arbitrary, but that picking that one factor out of the many that contribute to an individual's performance is.

Competitors' sex is being picked up on rather than lung capacity or heart size or whatever because a category division between males and females currently exists in athletics. It is an arbitrary distinction but it has been established because otherwise women would simply not be represented in finals, semi-finals or on the podium in elite athletics and many other sports.

Other categories could be introduced, I would have nothing against them (in fact most could serve as inferior proxies of sex differences e.g. height, leg length, heart size, lung capacity, weight, etc which goes to show how profound the sex distinction is in sport compared to any other factor), but you still wouldn't see women on the TV coverage of elite level athletics no matter what other feature you sub-divided them on, if you didn't categorise by sex first. That's why it's the category division that is most important if women are to have any sporting recognition - which I would have thought most feminists were in favour of - and that's why it needs policing.

If one allows athletes who have been through male-type puberty and who have male-type free testosterone levels (and there really is no overlap between healthy male and healthy female levels) into the women's category without restriction they will literally run away with the medals. This makes a mockery of the category's purpose, which is basically to divide on grounds of testosterone and its effects.

I hope the CAS reappraisal of this issue is a sensible one and happens soon.

If Semenya has androgen insensitivity syndrome then she, anyway, has not been thru male puberty. Her body can't respond to testosterone like a male can.

My (female) VO2Max is avg for males, but I'm a crap competitor (small heart, maybe). Another problem is that female elite athlete VO2Max is 99%tile for males. The elite males are 99.9 percentile. Paula Radcliffe is an example. A combined measure that included muscle mass & heart size etc would be needed. There's no simple measure that could be used.

It is quite clear from Semenya's body shape and voice that she does not have total androgen insensitivity. If she has AIS, then it is partial and she has physically benefited from the androgens in terms of bone and muscle development.
Whatever the cause of Semenya's raised testosterone it has caused a degree of virilisation.

Yet another ignorant Mumsnet thread on the subject of gender. This site will start getting a reputation in the media.

Caster Semenya has been cleared to run, after being suspended for a long period, by the strict gender testing policies of the IAAF . They don't mess about with stuff. Any ' facts' about her gender or lack of certain organs/body parts is pure speculation. The only public knowledge is that she has a raised level of testosterone which probably contributes to her appearance.

The DH of the OP is quite correct - her situation is nodifferent to Usain Bolts physical advantage , or a 7ft basketball players advantage.

She has done nothing deliberate, she is not a cheat. Michael Johnson went out of his way to say trying to give her drugs to lower her testosterone would be authorised doping and hypocritical.

It must be disappointing for runners competing with her, especially in her main event of the 800 metres, but that's sport. It's like a male sprinter who has been competing in the last 10 years - you are not going to win the 100m or 200m because of the presence of Usain Bolt.

Bobbydeniro69

"Caster Semenya has been cleared to run, after being suspended for a long period"

I don't think that she has ever been suspended, she was required to take suppressants which she did.

Caster Semenya has been cleared to run, after being suspended for a long period, by the strict gender testing policies of the IAAF . They don't mess about with stuff.

What's gender testing? How do these spirting bodies test gender - what does that even mean? It's the sex of the individual that should be tested - not how they identify.

CS has had an awful time - if Caster is female and tests have confirmed this then she should be left alone. The fact that the public knows the new guidlines regarding TW - means there will be doubts over certain athletes and that the IAACs doesn't have the same idea of woman and female as most folk do - unfortunately these new policies have not helped CS.

The DH of the OP is quite correct - her situation is nodifferent to Usain Bolts physical advantage , or a 7ft basketball players advantage

How about a heavyweight boxer fighting a lightweight or featherweight? Would that be a level playing field, too?

Disclaimer: I loathe boxing and think it has nothing to do with sport.

Yet another ignorant Mumsnet thread on the subject of gender. you mean sex the amount of people refering to gender on this thread is a lot.

I have read this thread with distaste due to the attitudes of posters who write as if they have in Depth factual knowledge of things they cannot.

I am unimpressed that a lot of comments have not been deleted and MNHQ have let this thread stand.

I found this article which I thought was interesting reading, particularly in regard to anomalies and being 'too male' in terms of times.

mobile.nytimes.com/2016/08/20/sports/caster-semenya-800-meters.html

Interesting comment piece in the Telegraph today which contains a few more 'facts'.
Unfortunately premium content but I'll bring some of the 'facts' across when I have a minute.
www.telegraph.co.uk/athletics/2017/08/10/iaaf-could-tackle-doping-relish-have-hounded-caster-semenya/