Caster Semenya- how can I explain this to DH?

[AngeloMysterioso]

Watching the athletics on TV, and they had a little video and debate about Caster Semenya. DH who can be completely pig headed at the best of times says the girls competing against her are just bitter because they can't win. A debate ensues between us about it- he's saying it's essentially the same as average height basketball players complaining about tall men having an advantage because of their height, or white sprinters complaining that black sprinters have an advantage because of their musculature. He is absolutely insistent that it's basically the same thing. How the hell do I make him understand?!

I think that there's a point on both sides.

On the one hand, Caster has been identifying as a woman since she was born. A masculine woman, maybe, but she's not set out to deceive anyone by running in the womens category. Because she's really good at running, she's had to undergo medical tests and have the fact she's intersex splashed over every paper in the world, when she likely didn't know herself.

However, I can see why it'd infuriate the people racing against her. The entire reason we have separate women and mens categories is because women are at a biological disadvantage to men in almost every event (bar gymnastics categories and figure skating) because they have less testosterone, a lower muscle percentage, and they're generally smaller. They can't match the natural advantage that Caster's higher levels of testosterone have given her - and they will certainly feel there is an advantage, otherwise why are all those russian records from the 80s/90s when doping was rife still standing? Why would they be barred from using testosterone during training? The IAAF's paper says it's a 1.5% advantage in 800m, in the Olympics 800m race that Caster won if everyone else got a 1.5% advantage she would have come 4th. It's understandable that her competitors are very annoyed she's allowed to run with them.

I think it's wrong to compare her to trans people or doppers. She was born with this. From what we are aware of she has taken no drug to raise her testorone. She was born a woman and remained one. She have a lot of respect for the woman as she managed to use something that could be seen as a curse and used it to her advantage in sport. With trans people they have been born a male and taken pills and all sorts to transition to a woman. In my opinion it's different

beep - no, I meant, literally, how do you get that?

But Lunar that's exactly the point - there is a huge degree of confusion over her sex because the authorities will not release the data. Medical experts said she couldn't compete because of her abnormally high levels of testosterone. Then the IOC was taken to court by another athlete and that was overturned.

At no point has the IOC said "Caster is a woman". And neither has Caster.

The level of ignorance, prejudice and spite in this thread is really, really depressing. Shows how little progress we have actually made as a society. Stuff like this makes me ashamed to be human.

She didn't even win the race.

LunarGirl

*The IAAF is also happy to note the CAS Panel's ruling that there is a sound scientific basis to the Regulations, in that endogenous testosterone is 'the best indicator of performance differences between male and female athletes', and its acceptance that hyperandrogenic female athletes may have a competitive advantage over athletes with testosterone levels in the normal female range.

However, the IAAF also notes the CAS Panel's view that more evidence is required as to the precise degree of performance advantage that hyperandrogenic female athletes enjoy over athletes with normal testosterone levels, and its directive that the Regulations should be suspended for two years while that evidence is gathered.*

this was 2015 so a new ruling should be imminent.

www.iaaf.org/news/press-release/hyperandrogenism-regulations-cas-dutee-chand

I understand there are complexities. But it is increasingly clear that allowing intersex and trans people into women's sport will destroy it. Here's the women's 800m from last year

What I'm most surprised about is that usually people with that level of testorone end up wanting to be a male. When was watching a documentary about her she did behave like a tom boy. I'm fully for her competing in the women's events i just find her intriguing

Cuir i assume you have some evidence that they're intersex or trans on that podium? You're not just going on appearance are you?

Wow. Some really nasty comments on here, and whether it's intentional or not quite a bit of racism as well. Black women have always been made to feel less feminine - look at the rubbish Michelle Obama had thrown at her, suggesting she was a man and had adopted her kids, or people referring to 'the Williams brothers' in tennis because they don't fit standard ideas of what is ladylike. No idea how her having a same sex marriage has any relevance whatsoever

Here's my thoughts for what they are worth.
CS had a childhood filled with bullying about her looks (I read a biography). She ran to overcome this and excelled at it - but it led to more bullying. Allegedly her head teacher didn't realise she was a girl for years.
After one race there was an issue with her testosterone levels so she was subjected to gender tests, which according to many reports but not confirmed, said that she was intersex. It was allegedly leaked online that she has no overdoes and womb but does have testes.
The IAAF then introduced the rule that if a female athlete had a really high level of testosterone they had to take suppressants and CS did less well - there is a suggestion that two other female athletes have a similar thing but I can't remember who. The IAAF have now revoked this for two years for further investigation and CS is starting to rise again.
It is a really difficult one as she is a woman in the way she has been brought up and also her body has female parts. But also male parts.
As a male athlete she would not be good enough due to her 'female bits' and as a female athlete she gets vilified for her 'male bits'.
I genuinely feel sorry for her - but I don't need to - she smiles through the media storm, she runs, she studies and she is married to a gorgeous girl. She has overcome all the crap and no doubt it will follow her everywhere due to her body and its mysteries. She is just getting in with life.

There are some truly horrible people on this thread.

Lego I always find it strange when they call them the 'Williams brothers' as Venus is one of the most feminine tennis players I've seen

Where do you draw the line though? There is significant evidence that shows that elite athletes are genetically different from the rest of us. There are genetic variants that respond to certain types of training and promote adaptations that result in elite performance. Should we ban them because they have a genetic advantage? People without these variants can train twice as hard yet never achieve the same results.
Should we wipe Eero Mantyranta's reconds? Strip him of his Olympic medals? He (and his family) had a genetic polymorphism that results in extreme sensitivity to EPO so he would churn out red blood cells with tiny amounts of EPO. He was allowed to continue racing even though this was known. EPO is advantageous to endurance sports. He cleaned up on the cross country skiing circuit in the 1960's. Testosterone is advantageous to power and sprint sports. Caster Semenya produces her testosterone naturally. She has been subjected to humiliating sex verification tests because she doesn't look "feminine", because she's damn good at her sport.
Should we be banning people that go to altitude to naturally boost EPO levels because they can afford it and others can't? And bear in mind that there are altitude responders and non-responders. Some people go to altitude and DON'T produce EPO. That's not a level playing field. The playing field is never level, from genetics, to training, to equipment, to resources. Pick any aspect of sport and it is never equal and it never will be.
Caster Semenya has been verified as female. She would NOT be allowed to start if her results were not acceptable, especially with the current doping controversy in athletics. The IAAF cannot afford another scandal right now.
Given the history of discrimination against women in sport, the humiliation so many female athletes had to endure just to prove they were women, this kind of discussion among women just seems wrong. Perhaps the more relevant question is why was she beaten if she has such an "advantage"?
(steps down from soap box)

There are plenty of female footballers who are the same build and height as male ones. If you're a striker, skill is usually more advantageous than being built like a rugby player. In terms of earnings and recognition, it's a disadvantage to women that it's separate.

I just want to say that I've been away googling and it does seem more complicated than XX or XY and so my earlier comments were ill informed.

I do think that the information should be made public (it's not like she gets talked about LESS this way and in fact the speculation may well be worse) because otherwise how do we move forward with women's sport?

I personally think that there is such a huge dropoff of girls in sport and combatting this should be a big priority in all this.

Anyway, my point was that I don't think running is one of those sports where sex isn't an advantage 100pc of the time because it is!

It is a tricky subject to talk about.

My understanding is that Caster's times slowed during the period she took meds to lower her testosterone level (as per the ruling in place at that time) and when the ruling (and the meds) was suspended her times rose again. That makes me think that her testosterone levels do give her an advantage.

The Russian that beat her years ago later failed doping tests. Hardly seems a level playing field unfortunately!

nerr it's widely believed in athletics that Margaret Wambui and Francine Niyonsaba have hyperandrogendism/ are intersex. We can't know for sure for privacy reasons but the changes in the rules are already starting to affect women's athletics, not men's. I have a young female athlete in my life and I care a lot about the implications for girls and women in general. I've also been following athletics for over 20 years and have never seen anything like this.

Why do us as people always have to put people down. Micheal phelps has a body that's buoy for swimming lungs larger than than a normal human body are we going to say he is not worthy of his achievements. Belt as a young child used to run around all over the place his parents took him to a doctor due to it. Semenya looked less feminine than other females. However these three and lent others used to strange things that they had a found something where it could be used as an advantage. I think people have put semenya down all her life due to her looks and behaviour and even when she's good at something we still have to put her down because she isn't like the rest of us. what a sad world we live in. We live In a world of 7.5 billions people not all women or men will be the same.

The fact that the official athletic bodies have done gender testing on her and concluded she can run as a woman, maybe?

Putting CS aside, Sporting bodies seem to have strange ideas of what a woman is these days though. And it's only going to get worse - for women and girls that is.

That's my point cuir, widely believed is not evidence and I know the rumours but just rehashing them on the internet without proof doesn't help anyone. I have also followed athletics for a long time (the first championships I went to was Stuttgart in 1993).

I do not think speculation about people's gender helps anyone, as we've seen on this thread because of rumour people talk about 'facts' that have never been verified.

difference between other genetic advantages such as height lungs that skier and the caster semenya issue is we dont distinguish in sport based on height lung capacity ect however we do for obvious reasons distinguish based on sex. by your logic we shouldnt do it based on sex

CotswoldStrife

Also since the meds have stopped she hasn't lost an 800m race for 23 months.