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Caster Semenya- how can I explain this to DH?

318 replies

AngeloMysterioso · 07/08/2017 21:39

Watching the athletics on TV, and they had a little video and debate about Caster Semenya. DH who can be completely pig headed at the best of times says the girls competing against her are just bitter because they can't win. A debate ensues between us about it- he's saying it's essentially the same as average height basketball players complaining about tall men having an advantage because of their height, or white sprinters complaining that black sprinters have an advantage because of their musculature. He is absolutely insistent that it's basically the same thing. How the hell do I make him understand?!

OP posts:
PovertyJetset · 07/08/2017 22:44

Just being devils advocate here for a second, but if say I decide to run in the para olympics because I identified as having a disability would that be ok? Even if I did not, or had a very borderline, mild physical impairment.

That's a crass example, but where do we say- no, that's enough. Women should be permitted to compete with their sex only and no trans permitted. Or...can we say well if you identifyied as female and halted or stunted puberty then that's ok? Or what if you decided to take sex change drugs after puberty, that's ok?

I don't know. But I am interested to know where that line is, and who decides where is lays.

Caster is a unique example and is not trans so I feel the point is moot wrt her.

winewolfhowls · 07/08/2017 22:44

Well I hope the poor woman is not reading this, isn't her life hard enough without constant criticism and prying into her personal details all over the Internet. If the sporting authorities have ruled that she is OK to compete then unless some of you are better qualified than the experts they surely must have consulted when investigating this issue then I think we should leave her alone.

Papafran · 07/08/2017 22:44

timeismovingon most female athletes will naturally have more testosterone than a non-athletic woman. A tall, muscular woman is also likely to naturally have higher levels than a short woman with high body fat. If CS had so much testosterone as to make her a man, surely her times would have been on a par with male athletes and she would have streaked ahead in this race?

Catsize · 07/08/2017 22:45

You are right time. I must stop being silly. Now, where's that marriage certificate. If I look at it hard enough, I will become a honed athlete...

bambambini · 07/08/2017 22:45

The IAAF have said she can run in the women's race. They know more than we do.

I've lost confidence in athletics bodies when they've decided that males can be classed as female and compete with women/girls.

I've no idea where CS fits into this as I don't know the results of their tests.

RonaldMcDonald · 07/08/2017 22:45

This is a pretty flicking grim thread in places.
CS was born intersexed and raised as a female.
For the many people and their families this is a reality where they only find out about their condition in adulthood.
In a situation where there is a mixed chromosomal pattern sometimes there is no apparent anomaly
Why do we assume the CS or her parent's were aware of her condition? Perhaps she was just a great athlete and they put her musculature and appearance down to training.
Not everywhere is equipped to detect intersex genitalia if presented as such at birth. Many intersexed people are wrongly gender assigned but it is my understanding that this is NOT the case for CS.

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 07/08/2017 22:47

Just being devils advocate here for a second, but if say I decide to run in the para olympics because I identified as having a disability would that be ok? Even if I did not, or had a very borderline, mild physical impairment.

There is rigarous testing of para athletes with regards to their disability.

They are often changed between categories.

It isn't self assessment.

bluegreenyellow · 07/08/2017 22:48

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PovertyJetset · 07/08/2017 22:50

piglet quite so, and can we say the same for men/womeNs races now for the ordinary Olympics etc?

There is a definite inconsistency there. Para- athletes are protected so they can compete effectively and their training isn't for naught.

quencher · 07/08/2017 22:50

Caster Semenya is biologically BOTH male and female that's what I thought. That's why they are not trans, male or female. They have both organs don't they? Or some of it mix and match. Sometimes surgery is done to remove certain organs depending on what sex the parents want their child to be. And there is spectrum in hormone levels which can help in deciding where they fall, male or female category but they are never just one.

The details are private and yet you are able to categorically state she is both male and female? I think that's is what it means when the word intersex is used. Isn't it ?

Lets address the fact that most of the female distance athletes are anorexic or bulimic and are so underweight it is dangerous this is actually true. And a lot of them struggle for years health wise. Including it being able to conceive. It's known thing.

Papafran · 07/08/2017 22:50

I've lost confidence in athletics bodies when they've decided that males can be classed as female and compete with women/girls

Bambambini can you please give some real-life examples (in athletics) of where the athletics bodies have classified males as female and allowed them to compete in female races.

PoppyPopcorn · 07/08/2017 22:50

From what I recall of reading about Caster Semenya back in 2009 when the controversy all started, she is from a rural area in South Africa. She is not from an affluent background and South Africa doesn't have the same medical services as we have here. It's entirely possible that neither she nor her parents had a clue.

It's important to remember that "intersex" isn;t the same in every person. I thnk I read that there are 46 different types of being intersex. The advantage of extra testosterone is different in different events and seems to be most pronounced in the middle distance events - 400m, 800, 1500m.

DorisMcSweeney · 07/08/2017 22:50

Catsize you clearly have an unfair advantage, and should be legally obliged to either not take the last discounted cereal box or to pass it on to an unfortunate short arse

Or take height reducing pills

PurpleDaisies · 07/08/2017 22:51

How do you know that she doesn't have a womb etc blue?

Not having a uterus doesn't preclude someone from being female.

Papafran · 07/08/2017 22:52

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HoneyIshrunktheBiscuit · 07/08/2017 22:52

bluegreenyellow please can you point me to the source of this information. Because from what I can see nobody from the IAAF or from CS's team has come out and said this.

LaurieFairyCake · 07/08/2017 22:53

I think we have to move towards extending the categories like we do for paralympics

Chromosome testing means there's a third category right?

So we need a third category

JamesBlonde1 · 07/08/2017 22:53

The female athletes running against CS aren't going to be chuffed are they? I haven't researched their views. I'd be interested to know how much resistance there was or appeals (if that process exists) against the governing body's decision on CS.

Catsize · 07/08/2017 22:54

On a serious note for a second, it is no different to me than, say, Usain Bolt perhaps having an advantage for being super tall and lithe.
It makes people feel a bit twitchy because it isn't something we are used to. The criteria for a race isn't height or weight, or muscle ratio or anything else. The races are segregated into men's and women's. The minute we see an opportunity to challenge it, we do. Many of us will have thought 'oh, it's not fair - Craster came third and Laura was robbed'.
Not many people considered the respective leg strides of the individuals involved.
If people with far greater qualifications than me think she is okay to race then I can't really say otherwise. Her achievements will aiways be tarnished.

JayneAusten · 07/08/2017 22:54

I don't think anyone is blaming her parents, or her, or her doctors. It is what it is - now. The only question is really what should be happening now that the information has come to light - and personally I feel that there should be more transparency. The lack of information about her chromosomes makes me think they know that if it was common knowledge that she has XY chromosomes, it would cause an uproar.

HoneyIshrunktheBiscuit · 07/08/2017 22:55

jayneausten maybe the lack of information is because medical information is private and shouldn't be broadcast to a braying public.

Not sure I'd like the world knowing my medical history.

Catsize · 07/08/2017 22:56

doris. I wouldn't want Sainsbury's becoming embroiled in my doping scandal.
I do have a massively unfair advantage though - those under a certain height can't even SEE to the back of the top shelf and all the goodies lying in wait for us loftier ladies...

NerrSnerr · 07/08/2017 22:56

Looks like the people earlier on the thread are not able to come up with evidence- they're just speculating and rehashing rumours.

On a side note Semenya does a lot of work providing menstrual cups for girls in Africa so they are able to go to school during their periods (think they're princess d cups). Not relevant to the thread but may be of interest.

PoppyPopcorn · 07/08/2017 22:57

I don't have a womb. Or fallopian tubes. Or a cervix. They were removed. I didn't wake up after my operation and find I'd turn into a man though. It's more complex than that.

What IS true though is that even though I don't have my womb any more, I don't have male characteristics or elevated testosterone.

quencher · 07/08/2017 22:57

The only way to solve this without it affecting women is having another category. Simple.