Caster Semenya- how can I explain this to DH?

[AngeloMysterioso]

Watching the athletics on TV, and they had a little video and debate about Caster Semenya. DH who can be completely pig headed at the best of times says the girls competing against her are just bitter because they can't win. A debate ensues between us about it- he's saying it's essentially the same as average height basketball players complaining about tall men having an advantage because of their height, or white sprinters complaining that black sprinters have an advantage because of their musculature. He is absolutely insistent that it's basically the same thing. How the hell do I make him understand?!

Your DH is right - just been listening to Paula Radcliffe talk such crap.

Suggesting people take drugs to reduce their natural levels of hormones because it gives them an advantage and it is just not fair.

I am 6ft 2ins woman - obviously had a slightly higher than normal dose of growth hormone and for me I had stopped growing at 13. Should I have stopped being part of my schools netball team because I was taller - no.

Semenya jsut came second so that 1.8% higher level of testosterone does not give her an advantage all the time!!!

Radcliffes seems to be suggesting that anything that does not fit in the range of the current athletes should be banned for fairness. Lets have all 5ft women competing, 5ft 1in etc etc etc.

She is female and has a slightly higher testosterone level - get over it. She did not won so it is not unfair, it is life.

Lets address the fact that most of the female distance athletes are anorexic or bulimic and are so underweight it is dangerous - the German 1500m athlete was scary.

I have also read that she has no vagina, ovaries or womb, only an internal pair of undescended testes. If this is true she isn't a woman and should not be competing against women.

I don't agree with other posters re physical traits. If someone, for example, is extra flexible then they do have an advantage initially when doing gymnastics however someone who isn't that flexible can work at this and improve it thus narrowing the gap. Ultimately you can have all the physical advantages you want but if you don't work hard and have the drive you won't make it. Differences in testerone cannot be 'worked on' unless drugs are taken and this is not allowed. If you've got higher levels you will be come stronger quicker and be able to work harder.

Something needs to be done here but it isn't a level playing field.

Poor Laura Muir. Totally gutted for her.

Caster Semenya is biologically BOTH male and female. The exact details of her condition are private (as they should remain) but although she may appear to have female external genitalia, she has male traits too. She has high levels of testosterone which previously banned her from competing with women, a change in rule now means that she can compete against women with an obvious advantage. However hard Laura Muir trains she will never be able to beat someone with male characteristics.

This is not fair. Yes it's not fair for Caster either, being intersex isn't a choice she made or anything to do with the trans debate. Completely different thing. However, if this "in order to be a woman you just have to say you are" legislation goes ahead, Laura Muir and every other female athlete might as well hang up their spikes and go home.

eatingonlyapples Precisely. Many elite athletes are physically unusual people - like the OP's husband's basketball player example. I think it's a risky route to go down to suggest that someone shouldn't be allowed to compete because they're physically atypical.

Papafran

The categories are:

Women's 1500
Men's 1500

No need to split on any other category. Some are born to race, others not. We know who are usually the best sprinters or long distance runners.

If there is to be women's sport then it should be for XX women with female sex organs and physiology
The physiology bit sounds a bit like a judgement on how feminine someone has to look to be considered female.

And have a look at CAIS females. XY but many are as feminine looking as anyone could imagine.

Lets address the fact that most of the female distance athletes are anorexic or bulimic and are so underweight it is dangerous

I doubt that.

We don't know if she is biologically both male and female. We don't know that she is intersex.

She identifies as a woman, but has no vagina, ovaries or womb, only an internal pair of undescended testes. She also has a same sex marriage.

Has this been confirmed? And if that is the case, how is she, biologically, a woman?

The biological definition of a woman had nothing to do with the presence or absence of ovaries etc. It's two X chromosomes.

That's an interesting point Honey. Athletic prowess doesn't occur as a result of male advantages within a patriarchal system though. It is fair to say that men are physically stronger in general, regardless of the inequalities or otherwise present in society, so the debate about sport is a separate one. I take your point about her being a woman in all other aspects though, regardless of her chromosomes in this instance.

Do the people who are talking with such authority about whether she has ovaries, vagina etc have any proof? Or are they just continuing to spread unconfirmed rumours around the internet

My googling skills obviously aren't as good as some of yours. Can someone please link to a reliable source that states that she does not have a vagina. Having an undescended pair of testes is about as much information as I can see.

If the IAAF have done their testing and allow her to compete then it's not really anyone else's business. She just came third. I don't think her excess testosterone is giving her much of an advantage.

We don't know if she is biologically both male and female. We don't know that she is intersex.

And yet so many posters on this thread are stating categorically that she is a woman. I wonder what their source is?

I have also read that she has no vagina, ovaries or womb, only an internal pair of undescended testes

Have googled this and found no official sources or links to this supposed fact other than a bunch of nasty daily mail articles.

And, JamesBlonde, I was being sarcastic. I do not think races should be racially segregated but the official bodies have agreed that CS can race as a woman, presumably because she IS a woman. You were the one saying that the Bronze belonged to Laura Muir. I am sorry, but Laura Muir was not the third fastest runner. That does not mean she needs to 'hang up her spikes and go home'. That's ludicrous. Would you say that all the male 100m sprinters over the past 10 or so years should have given up because Usain Bolt, proven to have a build particularly suited to sprinting, was competing against them?

If i remember my embryology correctly, testosterone influences development of penis and testicles in utero. Absence of testosterone =female

This is only speculation, as full details of caster's condition aren't published, i don't think. But if hse has normal or higher levels of testosterone, but hasn't developed male sex organs, then that makes me think her body doesn't process the testosterone. So it doesn't matter how much she has, she cannot use it.

I think she should compete as a woman. If we didn't have modern medicine and genetic testing she externally looks female, and that would be enough.

Google androgen insensitive syndrome.

And yet so many posters on this thread are stating categorically that she is a woman. I wonder what their source is?

The fact that the official athletic bodies have done gender testing on her and concluded she can run as a woman, maybe?

And for the love of God will people stop harping on about Muir never being able to compete against "someone like that". She came FOURTH that means 3 other people were faster than her. Are all 3 of them harbouring excess testosterone? I wanted her to win as much as the next guy but unfortunately she just didn't manage it this time. Nothing to do with testosterone.

The fact that the official athletic bodies have done gender testing on her and concluded she can run as a woman, maybe?

Yeah, but they have also said that men can run as women, if they feel like a woman and have ladybrain, and a testosterone level at the lower end of the man range, so I wouldn't take that as definitive.

We don't know if she is biologically both male and female. We don't know that she is intersex.

Well, Caster has never made an announcement and hasn't published her medical records. But there was enough doubt over her sex in 2009 for the athletics authorities to order testing. So there is obviously some issue there. The authorities described her sex at the time as "ambiguous". I interpret that as most probably showing characteristics of both sexes, and most other people do too. Yes she was raised as a girl and yes identifies as female but there was enough doubt over her biology for her to have to be tested - not something which happens often.

Her elevated testosterone levels would explain her physical appearance too - taller, more muscular, masculine features.

She could only run as a woman originally with medication to reduce her testosterone it was the Chand ruling that changed that. Some athletes do have super human qualities but the problem lies with even if a woman has these qualities it still would not give her the ability to beat an elite athlete with advantages of testosterone. I have no answers but this is more than caster the 2016 women's 800m final was not a one off of higher testosterone but a questionable all three medals.

Link please? So we can all read the full details, consider the facts and make our minds up once and for all.

TIA

It is very lucky she identifies as a woman if she identified as a man then she would not win anything......she gets to chose and has chosen the easiest option why is this allowed to happen to the detriment of women this is not fair play why do all the women she competes against have to forego their rights for hers just so her feelings are not hurt
She is intersex why does she not complete against intersex people instead of people whose sex is female
I personally could not do what she does to others I don't think it is moral

Is that the same official body that allowed Justin Gatlin to compete after testing positive twice for drugs?