To think EVERYONE knows the Lords Prayer and the National Anthem right ?

[Vanillamanilla1]

Apparently my husband Dosent and " why would I "
And the Lords Prayer is " all brainwashing bollox anyway " along with his theory That the christian church and the Catholic church are brainwashing bollox that sacrifice goats
I'm actually very disappointed in him
the Lords Prayer was said in primary school by the majority of primary school pupils right ? It was as commonplace as singing hymns
Admittedly I don't know the WHOLE of the National Anthem but I know the first verse at least
I find his attitude just fucking pig ignorant and down right rude
He's 46 years old for Christ sakes he's not 20 where it's probably not the done thing now

Even I know The Lord's Prayer and can, like Natsku, mumble or hum the national anthem but, like Natsku, no idea beyond the first verse. We we had to learn it in school and I don't even live in the UK, not even commonwealth, just that it was good practice for little children to learn English, I guess.

Why do you consider it important that your husband knows the words to a prayer to a mythical creature in the sky....?

If you believe in god it is important --- if you don't then it isn't

I cannot understand why you would think he is ignorant... mumbo jumbo isn't important to many people

I could recite the Our Father (the catholic and and the busman's version) and the Hail Mary, and if the Angelus is the one that kicks off with the angel of the lord declaring unto Mary, then I'd be able to make a decent fist of that one as well. Cradle catholic, adult agnostic, verging on atheist, but still appreciate the poetry of the language.

I'd probably be able to mumble my way through the first verse of GSTQ, but why would anyone want to, the tune's a dirge and the words doggerel. If you have to have an anthem, at least have one with decent words and music.

I should add that I can do the Lord's Prayer and stumble through the Nicene Creed, thanks to compulsory church attendance as a child, and the first verse only of GSTQ (which is doggerel on every poetic,aesthetic and musical criterion). But I believe in the flower of culture and after extensive exposure to non-Western cultures, and critical consideration, I believe that Western Europe/US is leagues ahead of the rest. Doesn't mean that I can't value Ruwi or Hokusai too. Just that European culture in its broadest sense is richer, deeper and wider than the rest.

OCSockOrphanage

Alrighty then.

What you know (I think) as our "Jewish and Christian traditions and principles" are currently only about 60-100 years into their current iteration.

Democracy, freedom of thought, freedom of expression, freedom of assembly, secular education etc. are not that old.

Women got the vote less than 100 years ago. Laws on Human Rights, Equality etc are less than 60 years old.

Christianity is 2000 years old. Judaism older. Any claim that these religions gave birth to our current freedoms is absolute tosh.

One of Scotlands greatest thinkers, David Hume, challenged religious orthodoxy but did so by anonymously publishing the Treatise of Human Nature, to make sure he was not condemned. This was 1700 years after Christ but there was no freedom of thought then.

Think how many laws and rules and customs that oppressed people stem from religious thinking by Christians and others. The world is building on Hume, John Stuart Mill and others who did not defer to religion automatically. You may be shaken about this thread but surely, if you think about it, you must be shaken at the realisation that the current positive associations of a European passport (as you put it) are not to do with religion as it is or was but instead intellectual thought that made life better for people after 2 millennia of Christianity.

"Just that European culture in its broadest sense is richer, deeper and wider than the rest."

Perhaps its more coherently older when it comes to learning, debate, discussion and education across borders. But the trailblazers for that were scientists. The 1761 transit of Venus was a global scientific endeavour conducted at a time when some of these states were at war.

I'd agree that Muslim and Jewish cultures are become more hardline to their faith (like the not sitting next to women on planes thing) but given the long history of Christianity supressing free though, art, books, plays, theatre, music etc I would say that our culture evolves despite the local religions, not due to them.

DD knows the European anthem, but not the British....where does that hit on the ignorant heathen disrespecting European values scale?

DD is 6 and no Jesus knowledge.

No she doesn't go to school.

I personally think it is terrible that we don't have state funded secular education on offer in this country.

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors

Nope. I learnt "forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us."

I'm 40 and I think everyone my age who went to a normal (non-faith) school in my part of the world would have said it at school.

I'm 40 too and went to a C Of E primary school.
I wouldn't presume everyone my age automatically did though.

I know all of Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau, yes.

I can vaguely remember the start of the Lord's Prayer from primary school. O Dad, yr hwn wyt yn y nefoedd, sancteiniad dyr enw, something something felly ar y ddaear hefyd etc etc. I don't know it in English and I wouldn't need to; I don't believe in God so why would I pray to him/her/them/it?

Also don't know God Save The Queen. It certainly isn't my national anthem - and I've got nothing against the Queen, but asking someone I don't believe in to save her (from what, exactly?) is a pointless exercise.

I was briefly taught it in school but I decided I didn't buy into the mythical creature in the sky quite early on so I haven't cared for it since then. Wouldn't be able to tell you what it is and don't care to be perfectly honest.

More importantly, do we all know GSTQ, the sex pistols one that is?

I used to know the lords prayer (brought up by religious parents and made to go to church until I was 13) but have forgotten half of it now. It just hasn't figured in my life at all since then, so why would I remember it?
I have only ever known the first verse of the national anthem but can't remember ever singing it. I suppose I must have done at school.
I don't think it's unusual not to know either. I'm pretty sure my children don't know the lords prayer. I'll ask my 20 year old later on.

Does anyone need/want to know The Lords Prayer or GSTQ?

Parker I think you can get through life quite easily without knowing either. There's no obligation

I am horrified that so many here do not recognise the immense value of the legacy we have inherited. I am too.

am horrified that so many here do not recognise the immense value of the legacy we have inherited

"Horrified?" Melodramatic, much?

I am an atheist republican.

Surely it isn't surprising that a plea to a God I don't believe in, to 'save' a woman, whom I have nothing against personally, but believe she shouldn't be the head of state, isn't exactly my cup of tea.

Why would you be horrified? Seems an overreaction. Neither mean anything to me - I don't go to church and am not bothered by the royal family.

derxa

In what way are you horrified?

Dexra is quoting.

Derxa

And actually i tried remembering the Lord's prayer and I realized that I didn't know the words beyond the 'who art in heaven' and at weddings and funerals I've been mumbling along and with the minister and I haven't got a clue.

Scottishdiem, I look at the body of art, architecture, literature and music created in Europe since the Renaissance and see little to rival its wealth, depth and breadth in Islamic or any other culture. The Byzantine world aimed high, but much of the beauty in Istanbul is Orthodox. Moorish medicine and science provided a haven for knowledge during the Dark Ages, but stopped moving on after about 1600: curious to know why.

Come the Reformation and Europe starts to sparkle with challenges to religious thought: the free-thinking philosophers, true science, medicine, parliamentary sovereignty and modern law. I grant the malign influence of the Inquisitions and the Puritan and their repressive tendencies (the Taliban of the day) but disagree that the general trend to the Enlightenment is only as recent as the Victorians. Their public health and educational initiatives are the foundations of our contemporary social landscape. Democracy, freedom of thought, speech and assembly have been codified and extended to all in the last 150 years.

History is so huge, everybody can pick out the bits they like and object to the injustices they perceive. But it has been a progression, although it has moved in fits and starts.

As an atheist, I don't believe religious superstitions, but Judaic and Christian moral codes are (generally) civilising influences. The works of art that were commissioned and dedicated to religious belief have left a legacy that millions flock to visit from all over the world. So was much of the classical music that's loved from Beijing to Bristol and Baltimore. Shakespeare and the King James Bible resonate through the English language wherever it is spoken, and Shakespeare distils the essence of the human condition, good and evil, quicker and more truthfully than most psychologists. And if the civilisation that has been created out of this stew is better than what went before, then some of the credit should go to the great figures of the past.

Maybe "horrified" was a touch melodramatic on reflection. IMVHO, a failure to acknowledge the contribution of religion, largely Christianity, is a bit dismissive.

And apologies for the essay.

OCSockOrphanage, humanity does indeed move in fits and starts. You note the progress of Muslim world until about 1600. That was a few hundred years of real development, art and learning. It could be argued that we are at the tail end of our most recent period of growth.

The Renaissance and then the Englightenment after it happened in difference places and a different paces around Europe. Often in the face of religious resistance. Humanity does go in fits and starts and it pulls religion along for the ride. If we are to recognise Christianity's role we could see it as something so malleable that it can be twisted and shaped to match current zeitgeists. See the internal discussion regarding same sex marriage in the Church of England. Or even the problem of women priests in a culture that now values womens equality more than it every has. There could be an easy graph to draw - the fall in the decline of Christianity and the rise of womens equality.

But please look at art outside Christendom. Japanese art, whilst never getting to something like a Vermeer, was particularly influential for Impressionists, Cubists and those artists related with Art Nouveau. Traditional chinese opera can be as stunning as anything produced in Europe. I dont know what your language capabilities are like but it helps to know Sanskrit to fully appreciate the plays of Kalidas but when they were translated into German, Goethe was fascinated by it. I wonder though, was Shakespeare influenced by his religion or the tide of religious conflict that surrounded him during his lifetime.

I grant that the King James Bible is a thing of beauty. It should also be noted that it is not a direct translation. The translations were improved through various drafts to be more inspiring and interesting. So what happened there, was it the humans that made the Bible better or what?

No civilisation should forget where it has come from but nor should it really give undue positive credit to the influences that shaped it. There is a lot of art and music that was paid for through Christianity. The wealth that paid for it though came from Empire building, slavery, serfdom and other less-than-voluntary sources. That needs to be remembered to.

I was intrigued by why you were horrified at a lack of knowledge regarding certain prayers and anthems. After all, the meaning of each Petition within the Lords Prayer is somewhat debated by religious scholars etc to this day. For something that was taught to/by Jesus you'd think we would have a little more certainty on the matter.