To feel irritated when families have multiple children they cannot afford

[Teddy7878]

First of all I accept that no contraception is 100% foolproof and pregnancy sometimes can occur even when people are trying their hardest to be careful.

I also accept that sometimes people's circumstances change and they could go from being financially comfortable to losing their jobs etc during their children's lives.

What really winds me up though are people who actively try and get pregnant when they already have several children and cannot afford the ones they already have. I sometimes see threads on here where people state they have less than £50 to feed a family of 7 for a week and no money at all for any luxuries whatsoever.

My DP and I will be in our mid 30s when we have our first child and we have decided it might be our only child. We want to be able to afford to give it a great life so have saved up hard for a few years beforehand. Between us we earn 65k so we live comfortably and don't have debts (other than the mortgage). It upsets me that we have to make the decision to only have one (possibly two) children and other people are having 5+ kids when they can't afford them.

Money isn't everything, a loving family home is always going to be the most important thing, but if you can only afford to eat lentils and never take your kids out anywhere fun or go on holiday or afford a car or pay for them to do activities outside of school or buy them a few nice things for Xmas then why keep continuing to have more and more children and making your situation even more stressful for everyone involved?! Why not just stick to one or two children?

I don't understand why people have more than 3 or 4 kids. Thinking about the hard work involved makes me feel exhausted and that's just thinking about it. My mind is obviously wired differently to those people who like to have loads of kids running around.

Crazy - Yes the amount of work involved in 4 kids is insane. I work full time between 2 jobs as does my dh and we just never stop with the housework and laundry, 4 x different parents evenings/ running them around to clubs and things. I must admit I was naïve and just didn't think of the work involved. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but given my time again I simply would not have 4 !!

Isn't Tax Credit and Child Benefit now capped at 2 children?

It is, yes - and while I'm sure there'll be wrinkles which will need ironing out, obviously it's a good thing that this won't affect children already born

I do wonder, though, whether this is going to be enough

I'm not in for a nasty shock husky lover. I'm well aware they might need some help at uni when they can't necessarily earn a full time wage, but I'm not ever going to base my child making decisions on what ifs. If you have that attitude you might as well say I won't have kids at all as i/we might die tomorrow. Even I were rolling in it I'd still expect them to work part time to fund themselves as much as possible as they'll be adults.

I don't understand the necessity for parents fund grown childrens cars or houses. Obviously if you can it's great, but some imply not being able to do so means people are raising kids they can't afford, I disagree. Some seem to think claiming ANY benefit means you can't afford kids. Which is ridiculous when two working parents earning up to 100k can claim child benefit.

YANBU.

Some people are just really uneducated and make bad decision after bad decision. It's usually a vicious circle that has been created by their equally uneducated parents. It goes on and on. To some people, having 4 plus kids is not hard work because they don't look after them the same way that others on here would. The kids virtually drag themselves up.

I have seen this alot in my line of work in the inner cities and It's heartbreaking. I have seen babies sleeping in drawers in houses.Now why would you have a baby in those conditions? Anyone sensible wouldn't but it happens.

This issue will never be solved.

Do you actually have any proposals for how we can fix this, or did you just want to rant about the selfish poor people?

Psycho Are you saying that ppl should NOT post unless they have actual ways to fix things?! Hmmm... I thought mumsnet is for ranting, complaining, asking for suggestions, offering help, and everything in between...

It's unpopular opinion but I agree OP. A lot of people who do this are repeating a pattern in their family culture and have had little in the means of education about it as a result of their own upbringing. I work with such people often and it's very sad that they wouldn't ever have considered doing something different -it's just 'what you do'.
To the poster who said they loathed being an only child, I was brought up as an only (sibling adult when I was born) and loved it (still do).

I agree with Button. For some women its something that happens, maybe to keep a 'boyfriend' or to have something to do. And dare I say it - its for benefits, to not have to work.

If anyone comes on here trying to claim this and that and wanting to work 16 hours otherwise tax credits will be stopped - well they will have many people on the forum helping them to claim. After all they are 'entitled'.

It makes me angry that people think the world owes them the right to do what they want and god forbid anyone questions what they are doing. If anyone sees bad parenting, an adult slapping a child or literally shouting in their faces to stop talking we are told that maybe the parent was having a bad day, maybe they need our support etc.

So, is it any wonder people think they can do what they like with little in the way of consequences.

Or we could all just mind our own business and let other people get on with their lives.

I only have one DC and I don't want any more, personally I think people who have multiple DC are mad whether they can afford it or not because I find just the one enough of a challenge! But it's not my decision to make and it's none of my business.

Isn't Tax Credit and Child Benefit now capped at 2 children?

I don't know how I feel about this. This may stop some ppl from having that 3rd child they can't afford, but many more will go ahead and have that 3rd one. Then what? Do we as a society just wash our hands off that 3rd one? Let it suffer?! But if asked whether or not we want to pay more taxes, I think most ppl, including myself, would say no.

I'm surprised you're in your 30's. You sound very immature. I agree with some of your arguments but the way you package them and argue is really offputting.

Dude, seriously. The country is not on the bones of its arse because of the relatively small number of people who have kids they cannot afford whilst on benefits. You have to be really small-minded to even think that.
Instead think of decades of governments stripping the industrial sector, robbing public services, social housing etc and investing/supporting a solely financial/service based industry which is primarily London-centric.

Following that the demise of decent state education in many places thereby reducing aspirations and the ability to achieve them coupled with spiralling housing costs and limited jobs.

Then look at how the income gap has widened, and work out where the money has gone. And it isn't to those in receipt of the approximately 20% of spending that goes to benefit claimants. It is primarily to those owning the companies paying so little that the govt has to prop them up.

And whilst you're at it consider how the massive pension burden (where the majority of welfare spending goes) is going to be serviced in an aging population.

Or we could all just mind our own business and let other people get on with their lives.

Bitch Agreed, unless their decisions affect the rest of us in some way, such as taxes.

Yeah - we're like this too op. Decided to stop at 2 because of costs etc, we worked out that we earn enough for two children to have what we both never had growing up. FWIW - my grandmother has 10 kids and she never took benefits, she and my grandad agreed that the salary he had was enough for 10 kids (back in the day) so they had 10.

I have four... now young adults.
Not a great income.. I work part time in education and dh was in the forces when they were little..now drives HGVs.
We did cheap uk holidays when they were little..more for the convenience than anything... we camped, and they loved it... to the point that we still camp once a year and they take holidays to join us.
They did a few extra curricular activities; most were not expensive (Brownies and such like) and two did gymnastics, one music lessons. They were not given multiple foreign experiences..but neither was I as a child. The only benefit we claimed was child benefit.
Somehow we have managed to support them into adulthood..two through university (and to a lesser extent beyond). Supported one through a year's travel abroad, supporting another now .
The kids are all incredibly close, and glad to have each other. Maybe we have just been lucky, but they do not appear to feel their childhood was deprived in any way.
I don't think you need a large income to have a larger family...you just need to make wise choices with the income you have. We won't be money rich in our retirement but we will be family rich.
One of my four is hoping for a large family herself.... but don't worry... by the time she has them she will have a decent income (she's a doctor) and won't be stealing from the tax payer...

Agree with OP. Some people make really bad decisions, trap their kids into the same cycle, and don't raise their kids to the same standard as others. A woman who doesn't do much with her kids might think she can handle six kids on £100/week because she doesn't take them anywhere or do anything or really parent. Another with 2 kids might struggle to cope because she does think of the best for them.

Others do it to avoid working, to gain more benefits, they think each new relationship is not complete without a child etc.

Good job the Tories have had a two child cap on tax credits for bloody ages then isn't it Rainbows?

OP YNBU. But life is rarely that simple for many people. But for the grace of God and all that jazz.

Usually immigrant families with 7 or 8 kids

Really? That view is so ignorant. The people who I can think of off-hand with large families are either blended families, or families who have insisted on having baby no 7/8/9 until they've got that much wanted boy /girl. None of them immigrants.
^

RainbowsAndUnicorn - you may disagree but it doesnt make it any less fact. I see plenty of women who dont feel they have any other choice BUT to have sex because "he will leave me" or "he will go somewhere else for sex". Finding yourself pregnant again just a few weeks after giving birth, because "you cant get pregnant when you're breast feeding" or not knowing how to access FPC's or trusting a doctor makes gaining contraceptives difficult. Im not saying these women dont have choices, they just dont KNOW there is another way. I can name you at least 3 Childrens Centres in one city alone where footfall is disproportionately low as women are too afraid to walk through the doors because they percieve them as likely to take their children away.

The argument "it's their life it doesn't affect you" doesn't really apply when you're talking about indirectly supporting these children through subsidised health care and education does it? But obviously when the children are here we have a duty towards them.

Individual incomes aside it's just environmentally irresponsible to have a large family in an overcrowded country in an overcrowded world with dwindling resources.

I understand what the op is saying, I think many of us do. It's difficult to comprehend continuining to have many kids you can't afford. It's lovely to say money doesn't matter, but it does, their is no joy in poverty.

I was friends with a girl at school who was one of ten. Yes ten. They had two council houses next door to each other, but not knocked through. You had to come out one and into the other.

We were poor ourselves, so the issue on money wasn't one I could see as a child, but what I could see was the lack of parental interaction. The parents tried very hard and were good people, but bottom line is the older siblings always had to step in and help care for the younger ones. My impression was none of them were very happy.

Little things, like school trips, doing homework with them, even meal times, decent nutrition, new shoes, all becomes a very very different deal when you've loads of kids.

So I don't really don't understand it because in my limited view it's seldom the Disney version and more struggling day after day to cope and make ends meet.

we are not over populated we have an ageing population so need to actually increase birth rates

no we don't, we just need to change the pyramid system that is the pension system but when the government does it everyone cries foul and says "it's not fair". Look at all the women complaining that they'll have to work until 65 instead of 60.

It is not a good idea to tell people have lots of babies because people are living longer - we need a much cleverer solution than that.

I have four. We receive CB, free education & healthcare. We are not good for the environment but we are good for us.

I think it is possible to moan about money no matter how little or much you have. I think circumstances change. I know contraception fails. But that ultimately having children is a selfish act. So, particularly if your life is not great having children is for many the one thing they can really control and enjoy. It's selfish and short sited but as a basic biological urge it is totally understandable.

OP well done for exercising self restraint and feeling morally superior. You should award yourself a badge. A nice shiney one. But YABU because having children is not a rational act but a biological urge. Some are better at containing it ( and feeling superior for doing so) than others.

Teddy if it's hard having to repeat yourself over and over again don't start such an awful thread on the internet on a parenting help website. Talk to friends about it instead why come online and start a fight?

YANBA at all!

OP I don't think what you write is actually as terrible as some posters think.

I think you're a realist. It's really simple. Can't afford children? Then don't have them.