To feel irritated when families have multiple children they cannot afford

[Teddy7878]

First of all I accept that no contraception is 100% foolproof and pregnancy sometimes can occur even when people are trying their hardest to be careful.

I also accept that sometimes people's circumstances change and they could go from being financially comfortable to losing their jobs etc during their children's lives.

What really winds me up though are people who actively try and get pregnant when they already have several children and cannot afford the ones they already have. I sometimes see threads on here where people state they have less than £50 to feed a family of 7 for a week and no money at all for any luxuries whatsoever.

My DP and I will be in our mid 30s when we have our first child and we have decided it might be our only child. We want to be able to afford to give it a great life so have saved up hard for a few years beforehand. Between us we earn 65k so we live comfortably and don't have debts (other than the mortgage). It upsets me that we have to make the decision to only have one (possibly two) children and other people are having 5+ kids when they can't afford them.

Money isn't everything, a loving family home is always going to be the most important thing, but if you can only afford to eat lentils and never take your kids out anywhere fun or go on holiday or afford a car or pay for them to do activities outside of school or buy them a few nice things for Xmas then why keep continuing to have more and more children and making your situation even more stressful for everyone involved?! Why not just stick to one or two children?

Spot on AMD724

No we get it OP

You think people should follow your rules and ape your priorities.

But you'll kindly make an exception for the brown people because culture.

You don't think pink people are entitled to culture especially poor ones.

And your grasp of economics is superb.

If only everyone was just like you and your hubby eh?

Maybe we should institute a one child policy with compulsory Disneyland trips? (Travel agency receipts to be shown before conception licence is issued).

You're a true visionary!

Teddy, you cannot possibly equate the contribution of those who do not pay their taxes, continually influence politicians to make policies that only benefit them, while at the same time trying to dismantle programmes (including education and the NHS) that benefit the entire country, to those people who have more children than you think they can afford. The number of people claiming benefits with a large family, as their only income, is incredibly tiny. The economic and societal damage from the former group is significant and an ongoing threat. Example, Grenfell Tower. A group of rich residents, influencing a council to cut corners on ensuring the safety of poor people living in council housing. Outcome: at least 70 deaths. I haven't seen anyone die from a direct consequence of someone being on benefits and having too many children. There are people with very few children who are wealthy, who abuse and mistreat their children. You cannot make a causation link between the two. I'm not supposing you're doing so, but I'm cutting off that as an explanation immediately.

I'm half Thai and one thing I'm not is racist. I give to charities every month that help people in Africa. I wasn't including people from other cultures in my argument as I understand that there are different reasons for them having lots of children and I don't judge them.

Priceless

I just couldn't muster up enough energy to get mad, to be honest.
Yes it is irresponsible to have more children when you can't afford the ones you have.
Is that what you want to hear?
Yes, it is irresponsible, and if the children are suffering through this, then it is selfish too.

But what do you propose we do about it?
Say, "You wanted to have 5 kids Laura, you've made your bed, now fuck off and starve".
We support these families, because why should the innocent suffer? They didn't ask to be born!

Or, would you propose an enforced contraceptive- which is only removed if you can prove to the government you're financially solvent?

And what if you are a SAHM with 4 children while your DH earns 150k a year, and he dies suddenly.
What then...do you have your children removed because you can't afford them anymore?

Do you actually have any proposals for how we can fix this, or did you just want to rant about the selfish poor people?

It would freak me out having kids I couldn't afford.

The thing is though, for me anyway, the urge to have one, then another child was overwhelming, it took over everything. If we'd really thought about it we couldn't really afford one, let alone two, children but we figured we'd make it work. We did do somehow, then we split up. I'm now dating someone else and am fighting the urge to have another child daily. I know it would be a totally irresponsible thing to do, but yet I still can't help wistfully looking at babies.

I don't want to just 'manage' though. I want to continue to be debt free after it took me years to pay mine off. I want to be mortgage free by the time I'm 50. I want to have a good pension. I want to be able to take my child abroad and experience different cultures. I want them to have a great education and fund them through uni. I want to help with things live driving lessons or hobbies they have. I want to be able to cook them nice meals.

We used to think like you. All through my late twenties and early thirties I wanted a second child and my husband in particular said that we had to wait until we had more security. We started trying just before my mid thirties and years went by without success. I was the told in my late thirties that for various reasons we couldn't have children and that I was too old to do anything about it. At the age of 40 I did fall pregnant and we now have our baby boy - however his older sister is now so much older that he is practically an only child. At the age of 41 ( my husband was then 47) we found ourselves desperately wanting a little brother or sister for our boy. We were told that there was a chance as often women have a surge in their fertility just before the menopause. Then on my boy's first birthday we were told that I had cancer. Six months later after surgery I have been told that in a few months we can try again for a baby but we are aware that time is running out. I wish that we hadn't put savings and pensions ahead of having children. I feel quite certain that will be my dying regret.

Logical - If your Dh earnt 150k a year and died I would expect that there would be life insurance cover to pay off the mortgage and payout a lump sum !!

My argument is only based on British families who don't come from different cultures
Your argument is based on that family you don't like on Facebook.

You have taken one couple who are ttc whilst asking about foodbanks and turned them into a movement of feckless people having lots of bubbas and wanting you to pay for them.
Except the brown ones, bless them, they don't know any better because...culture.

You work at the council. You are irritated and annoyed, a mum of 3 wants food voucher's and a larger house. If you started a thread with how the government spends our money I would indeed give my two penneth. But you didn't and you're not. The council on behalf of the government sets guidelines and budgets for benefit's and housing for lone parent's. low family income's. So, as an employee of the council you make judgemental opinions in your professional capacity when supporting 'mum's with lots of kids and no money'.
It is indeed outrageous how our taxes are spent.
It is more outrageous, becoming more and more spurious with each post, because other MN's are not agreeing....with your OPINION...Your VALUES....your CHOICES. So why cannot you not accept the choice and values of 'mums with lots of kids and no money'.
I think at the very least, you are breaking your company code of conduct and may perhaps be more suited at badger culling...

I had a woman just on Friday come into my work for food bank vouchers. She had 3 children under the age of 5 and was asking me to help house her in a slightly bigger home because she's planning another baby. And this is ok how?!

OP I think your above post is the issue. You're in a very difficult job where this is all you see wrt larger families and benefit claimants, day in, day out.
You don't see the good side, the fun side of having lots of siblings, of not needing to pay to entertain them constantly because they play together so well.
You can see from this thread alone that people have different standards and expectations of family life.
Yes-the example you give is ridiculous, but for the rest of us who aren't privy to this one small section of society, it's pretty uncommon.

I personally would love one more child, but DH feels very strongly that it would effect our lifestyle and opportunities for the current DCs in the future so I've acquiesced. because I'd probably still want even more

Also, once you've had one, quite often you just need more. Kids are very similar to Pringles in this regard.

YANBU. I don't see the point. There won't be enough jobs for all of these kids. Plus the other problems associated with overpopulation. I honestly think that humanity deserves everything that it has coming (and I count myself in that). Makes me laugh. What's wrong stopping at one or two kids?

SerfTerf, you NAILED IT!

I think you need a different job. You're clearly not suited to working with poor and vulnerable people.

If its not ok to judge ethnic minority people by your standard then I've no idea why you think its ok to judge white people.

We support these families, because why should the innocent suffer? They didn't ask to be born!

This one always comes up on these threads, and for me it's a question of thinking ahead rather than just to the next election. In the minority of cases where there's genuine fecklessness, surely it's obvious that encouraging the birth of more children is doing them no favours when they'll probably be born into a vicious circle of unending deprivation?

Of course we'e got to support the children already born and of course we can't just "leave them to starve", but future planning is also important for the sake of those unborn children if nobody else

...if you can only afford to eat lentils and never take your kids out anywhere fun or go on holiday or afford a car or pay for them to do activities outside of school or buy them a few nice things for Xmas - Surely this is a matter of preference.

For me "afford" means I can pay for nursery, later music lessons and sports, lovely food and plenty of going abroad. Perhaps £5,000 per year per child. No school fees, no skiing, no horse and a shared bedroom with a bunkbed.

Others want public school, skiing, horses, own bedroom each and need £30,000 per year per child.

Others still only need much less because they don't find going abroad or paid for hobbies important.

Moaning about money on social media does not mean they really can't afford them.

I don't judge people for being poor or vulnerable. I judge people in this country who choose to plan for another baby when they can't afford to feed the ones they currently have. And that's discounting anyone with mental health issues. I'm talking about anyone who is sound of mind who makes the choice to have another child when they currently use foodbanks. I'm clearly a cunt for worrying about the welfare of the children in these situations so that's me told. Thanks for the interesting debate though guys. Toodles

A group of rich residents, influencing a council to cut corners on ensuring the safety of poor people living in council housing. Outcome: at least 70 deaths

Is this actually true? Local residents persuaded a council to cut corners?

It's when they keep having more children when already on benefits that gets me. If I can't afford more children why should I pay more taxes so they can?

Baby-daddies when has this crept into UK English language confused

Hate Are you trying to incite me to call you jingoist or are you just new to mumsnet and doesn't know that there are ppl here not from UK?

Of course we'e got to support the children already born and of course we can't just "leave them to starve", but future planning is also important for the sake of those unborn children if nobody else

I think this is being done already, Puzzled.
Isn't Tax Credit and Child Benefit now capped at 2 children?
It isn't being removed from people already in receipt of it, but the warning is there in the cap, "If you choose to have more kids now, it's on you to ensure you can pay for them".

Why are people on this thread actively trying to suggest that the OP has said something she hasn't said?

It's tradition on here to do that.

How do you know looking at a larger family whether they meet your acceptability criteria?

I wouldn't on the face of it at one point in my life - multiple kids and living in poverty - so how would you know ?

Only child tax credits are now capped at 2 children for children born after April 2017. To be honest this isn't going to stop people living chaotic lives from having more kids, it will just mean the kids will suffer more. Other will decide that they will still go ahead with a third child regardless. Also the government will still pay towards childcare costs for a third child.