To ask what single sex spaces mean to you?

[Thisisouting]

Why are single sex spaces important to you as a female?

Its deffo a positive beepbeep

Clarky the consequences of our/their decisions? Are you kidding?!

So the father has no responsibility for his decision to become a parent, then? The consequences of this have nothing to do with him? And women are expected to play catch-up for having made this decision?

The impact of starting a family doesn't fall on both parents equally, but on the mother for her default biology. It's not a question of attempting to 'work as hard as a man'. How about the man works as hard as the woman and juggles their career with child-rearing, like the majority of women are expected do.

Know your place ladies, you deserve the inequity because you were born with a vagina

It means you only think it's normal because you're straight and thinking in terms of being straight @BeepBeepMOVE

@Datun I have to disagree - I think making others feel uncomfortable for no good reason is quite the hobby for some people.

I agree with you that the notion of single sex spaces being transphobic is shite, though. It's just not.

I agree with you that the notion of single sex spaces being transphobic is shite, though. It's just not

I don't see how it cab possibly be seen as transohobic really.

I mean whatever rest room a trans person wants to use they are surely at risk of the same creeps pretending to "identify" as the women already using the spaces are surely?

You can't claim the men's is so dangerous you aren't safe using it then expect men to be allowed in?

Lighter note - the more loos the better. especially if enclosed ones took the place of urinals. I never change in public areas ref swimming pools but if they went unisex I'd want them to be more secure and if I had DDs I'd want them superintended. Teenage girls changing in a public area (unisex) or with a chap affirming as a woman? And totally get women's refuges etc.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/how-do-you-solve-a-problem-like-men-in-women-s-changing-rooms-maria-v3hhxmk3p

Hands up who has an urinal in their home.

It's the men's space we women, including trans, need to be invading.

Let the men come on here and tell us all about their special spaces.

Men get uppity if you, as a woman, walk into their loos.

And men know the difference between trans and women.

Just like women do.

The thing is, it all comes down to people's feelings and perceptions of their rights. If you take away all single sex toilets etc then you're effectively saying the feelings/rights of transpersons Trump those of women and girls (who are, empirically, more vulnerable to assault from the opposite sex than men).

So gender neutral spaces as an addition to existing services - great. But not instead of.

Yeah definatly should be an addition.

I'm an adult I can deal with peeing next to men. And I know how fortunate I am to be able to do that. I do. If im.the best some freak who stalks bathrooms can do he's in more trouble than I am. I've spent alot of time dealing with drunk men and/or dealing with all the comments and touching over the years and am in a position to let it go in one ear and out the other without giving it too much thought.

But I have 2 dds and I want to be able to have some control over who they dress and undress or share space with. They are too old to accompany dp into the men's so need the ladies to be as safe as it can be.

Has anyone tried cassanovum and had trouble with it

All very archaeic. We would have a fit if someone said men only space, white only space, christian only space etc...

Um, well there are plenty of men only places. There are men-only clubs, golf clubs, the Masons etc. There are a religious places where women aren't allowed. There are probably Christian-only spaces in relation to worship or study.

White-only places would be racist, and not in any way like having sex-segregated spaces.

You can't equate women only or men only spaces to racism.

Only when black women are prevented from using a ladies toilet

In terms of racism... I think there is a comparison, though I don't know how well it works.

Imagine if a white person identified as black.

They wore makeup, wigs and prosthetics to look the part somehow; adopted freestyle rap or a Southern "Marmy" accent and new stereotypical style of clothing. OR they didn't do any of that, at all. They just stayed very white and didn't alter anything whatsoever.

I don't think we'd all just say "yes of course, if you feel black then you are".

Many would be insulted that an entire community could be reduced to outdated offensive stereotypes. Or could be turned into just a label which could be adopted or discarded on a whim.

We'd be baffled by kids being encouraged to find their inner-black-self, or being put forward for surgery as a pre-teen if they said they thought they were.

We'd be uncomfortable as they started to qualify for scholarships aimed to increase diversity, and count in crime and equality stats, or the way the medical community approach different group risks.

And then imagine - the first black British Prime minister! Amazing! - while a prominently and visible white man who grew up as one with all the experiences and unconscious benefits therein stands grinning into cameras everywhere.

I actually think there'd be outrage and cries of "racism" from the start.

But with biological sex - another feature we're just born with - people get uncomfortable and confused and want to be kind. They mix gender and sex and sexuality and free expression together, and conflate the trans cause into the LGB battle where people fight to live and love freely without discrimination.

The current push by trans activists does not belong in the LGB category and has in fact already hurt people in it. It reduces women to stereotypes. It damages our rights, and we don't have as many of those as people think. It damages vulnerable people who are in my opinion too young to elect for surgery. The core group of transactivists it benefits are mainly white privileged men.

By all means, we need to protect trans people. Gender dysphoria needs to be treated compassionately; no one should ever be physically or emotionally attacked on any basis. But there should also be limits in society based on innate biological needs too to protect other vulnerable groups.

We should all be shouting "sexism" right now.

Absolutely notone. I thought of all that fuss about that American woman who said she identifies as black and wondered why it was any different than men who say they identify as women.

Returning to women only spaces. There is a reason why these exist. I do not want men with penises (or women with penises) in these spaces.

We need to make a big outcry about this and tell all the people in our lives who care about us what is being threatened. Because it seems to be being glossed over in the media at present. Women's voices are being silenced and censorship is taking place where women try protest.

I say this as a happily married woman with 3 lovely sons. My sons and my husband totally understand the need for private spaces for women in hospitals, prisons, shelters, toilets, changing rooms. They also feel as I do that only biologically born women should be allowed to compete in women's sports.

Not a lot. My local school has done away with separate toilet areas because girls bullied girls and boys bullied boys in them. They now have a row of cubicles in the corridor. My local pool has a changing village with large cubicles for family changing. Shared showers. No one is allowed to strip off outside cubicles. Both feel a lot safer than separate rooms. But then I've been physically abused by both sexes so I fear both and prefer the open environment of uni sex toilets and changing areas as it reduces all harassment as they would be visible to everyone.

So what is going to happen with the likes of single sex schools.

I mean people choose then maimlunfor the girls specifically to avoid the unconscious bias in co eds and the day to day sexism and misogyny.

And because girls academically better in single sex settings amd have better sporting opportunities.

So will people just be able to say I feel like a girl and join an all girls school?

Or like a boy and join Eton?

The thing is - 99% of people wouldn't. We're socially conditioned to not be impolite or break unspoken rules. But there are always some who would, and the point is that the new law just isn't thoughtful enough on the potential logical outcomes.

And yy busy, I just googled it; Rachael Dolezal; she is arguing for "trans-black" as a label now. Apparently the trans community hate her for publicly mixing the issues.

no

You say people wouldn't but does the bill/law that's being discussed mean that effectively someone could?

There would not be unisex or male/ female changing facilities in an all girls or all boys school.

notoneofyou

I agree with that. There are definitely men who will deliberately push it.

Being creepy but then insisting they have every right to be there.

There can't be many women who haven't experienced some sort of boundary violation. From mild manspreading and the old 'arm-across-the-top-of-your-chair' to far, far worse.

For some men, they don't even know they're doing it.

Others may not be predatory in the full sense of the word, but a sense of male entitlement would be very unwelcome in a female only space.

We're conditioned to it in the office, on transport, in the street, bars, etc.

We're not in a space that we assume is for women only.

1. Safety

I could fill a book with accounts of my experiences of sexual assault, unwanted attention, predatory and threatening behaviour from men. I'm just an average woman and unfortunately this has been part of my life in public places. One swimming pool I go to has unisex changing with lots of cubicles and no open changing areas. This is fine for me because it is always very busy. It's completely different from being in a small, quiet changing area/ toilet block with males.

1. Privacy

I don't ageee with partners staying overnight on maternity wards. There are some situations where women are vulnerable and need to be in female only spaces. notone you are right. Comparing this situation with race highlights how ridiculous it is. I would certainly meet a lot of criticism for wearing make up to make my skin black, having a nose job, talking about my experience as a black person, etc. The irony of this is that I'm a white presenting mixed race woman. I have more claim to be black than I have claim to be male. You could successfully argue that race is non- binary, thanks to a myriad of combinations. Sex is definitely binary.

Thank you for all your responses

If anyone feels able to expand on their stories anon. Obviously then please PM me I'll be using some of these in a project to highlight why keeping single sex spaces are important. If you want to get involved please let me know.

If you really want to get involved with the campaign against changes to the Gender Identity Bill please see the following thread

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/2992687-Inviting-you-to-join

Rachael Dolezal; she is arguing for "trans-black" as a label now. Apparently the trans community hate her for publicly mixing the issues.

I keep asking my American friends why, if transgender is OK, transracial s not. The general answer & cutting it very short: history of slavery & cultural experience of being black.

But, but, but ... there's a very long history of women being "owned" by fathers & husbands, and let's not get started on living as an Othered minority (ie as a woman) in a patriarchal culture.

Here's an account of what happened to a philosopher who wrote an article for the feminist philosophy journal Hypatia arguing that if we accept transgender, we should accept transracial.

And the argument which nearly broke the journal and led to the resignation of its main Editor in protest at the protests.

Hypatia transracial/transfender controversy: Wikipedia entry