Man in ladies toilets

[ItsAHardKn0ckLife]

Okay I'm not sure if I'm being unreasonable here, husband works away, have an unwell toddler and I'm a little sleep deprived. So not sure if emotions are getting the better of me.

Popped into our local M&S, DS (2yo) in tow. Needed to use the toilet before shopping. Walk into the ladies (small bathroom, only 2 cubicles) to an older man and woman (late 60's at a guess) changing a babies nappy. I stopped in my tracks, confused, checked I'd definitely walked into the right toilets.
I said "you are aware this is the ladies?"
"Yes" the woman replied, "have you got a problem?"
"Erm, well yes actually I have"
Cue lots of tutting and huffing and puffing whilst I waited patiently for him to leave.
On their way out of the door I was told I was being "absolutely ridiculous" and "totally unreasonable".
In hindsight I probably should have ignored, but I was feeling pretty pissed off so I went to inform a member of staff.
The couple were standing near me and they were shouting that I'm a hypocrite as I took my DS in there with me. Again repeating that I was unreasonable etc and what did I expect them to do? They then walked off.

I ended up crying

The staff were lovely and offered me a very nice cup of tea. I apologised for being an emotional wreck and causing drama.

So was I wrong for being unhappy about this? Would you have said something or just turned a blind eye to him being in there?

If that was directed at me, then I don't think anyone female was inconvenienced, least of all my DDs, who would have been inconvenienced by my taking them into the men's.

I thought that anybody was allowed to use whichever toilet they wanted to as long as they identified as being that sex.

The man in the OP doesn't sound as if he identifies as being female but surely this kind of story is going to happen more and more frequently.

My parents look after my niece and nephew. When my niece was small it genuinely did take 2 people to change her nappy - she needed 1 to hold her down and 1 to change her or she was off like a shot. My mum generally changes nappies but doesn't have the physical strength to lift a small toddler onto a changing table needing my Dad's help. When my ILs took my daughter out for their first trip when she was a baby they both had to confer to change a disposable (they'd always used terry toweling) and still managed to get the nappy on back to front. My hsuband was a SAHD and often found it was use the ladies and a changing table or change LOs nappy on the floor...
There are lots of reasons why a man and a kid would be in the ladies doing nappy duty. He was obviously not in there for some nefarious purpose. I think you were very unreasonable and should have just had a wee. He would have seen nothing and not even registered you were present if you hadn't made a fuss.

I think you missed the point in that any man uncomfortable with a women in that toilet could also take the extra layer of privacy if they wanted to and the women could just not look.

Meaning the only reason they chose to use the ladies was because they thought upsetting women was preferable to upsetting men or the very reason the old lady didn't want to use the new was the same reason she was choosing to inflict on another won a

The couple made the best decision for them between two unsuitable choices. We don't know what other factors were in play - perhaps the ladies smelled better, perhaps it was empty while there was someone in the gents, perhaps it was the first one they came to, perhaps they didn't know there was changing facilities in the gents.

Perhaps they just needed to change the baby's nappy before the child got nappy rash and the last thing they needed was someone confronting them over it and then reporting them to the staff.

Or possibly the woman didnt want to go into the mens?
No, it has to be something against women

So I actually don't have an issue with unisex loos at all, for a whole range of reasons. But as @Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g said,

"In a completely unisex toilet, I would expect as a minimum that the doors and walls would be floor to ceiling for privacy reasons."

and this isn't the case in a normal ladies. That said, they were only changing a nappy, and as a woman if I needed help with that from a man, I would prefer to get that help in the ladies, rather than go into the gents, on the grounds that men actually expose their genitals in there whereas women are in cubicles - I don't think it's nice for men who were expecting privacy to suddenly have a woman in their space.

But then I don't think it's nice for women to have that same expectation subverted either.

SO: I think OP you were not being unreasonable to be annoyed about it, but in the context of them probably needing two people for whatever reason, I think perhaps you did overreact a bit.

BUT: M&S is being unreasonable for not providing a neutral space for changing babies. In my ideal world there would be individually completely sealed unisex cubicles, a dedicated changing space, dedicated accessible loos, and NO ONE would hover over the bloody seat getting piddle everywhere, man or woman.

bangs gavel

Giles if your argument is that the extra layer of privacy in a female loo isn't sufficient if a female feels uncomfortable, why should it be sufficient for a male?

This thread is massively highlighting the need for adequate facilities for all needs

"He would have seen nothing and not even registered you were present if you hadn't made a fuss."

The actual woman in this situation registered that a man was present and was uncomfortable with it.

Who gives a flying rat's ball bag if he registered anything? He had no right to be there.

They could have used the disabled toilet if both were too disabled to change a nappy on their own
Seriously??
Use the disabled loo to change a nappy?

That's the point though.

If it's equally bad both ways who is the default to choose to upset the women.

Giles if your argument is that the extra layer of privacy in a female loo isn't sufficient if a female feels uncomfortable, why should it be sufficient for a male?

I was about to type similar.

This thread is massively highlighting the need for adequate facilities for all needs

Yup, it's not a one size fits all situation.

kali to be fair sometimes the disabled loo is specifically the baby change point too. Not right, but not an outlandish suggestion until all facilities are split

Today 12:50 Gileswithachainsaw

Don't wanna see a penis then don't look. Simple

And again. Excellent.

There are sex and age things all over the place

Play areas for under 5's

Play areas for under 14

Changing rooms and toilets for different sexes

I tend to abide by the rules laid down in those areas

There are signs on the loo doors in m&s, very clear. I don't understand how they can be missed or misconstrued....in this shop in this country at least

Ilove My DH once said she had to keep her seat belt on when he was driving because otherwise he could be arrested. This was about 4 years ago and she has never gotten over it. She also had a run in with the security staff a Manchester airport. It isn't that she can't be in a room with anyone wearing a security or police like uniform, its just that you'll need ear plugs and some skill in restraining a terrified child.

Get used to it OP. If the Tories pass the bill on gender self identify, there will be lots of males in the ladies.

kali

I would just assume that if someone was disabled enough to lift a baby onto a table they would also have trouble getting themselves off the toilet meaning they should probably qualify as disabled enough to use the disabled loo.

morphene

Oh bless her

Its like white coat syndrome...but worse...I imagine

The op DID NOT throw the couple out the toilet. She waited till they continued to finish what they were doing. Then the male who was in the female toilets yelled AT the female throughly the door.

So the male who should not have been in there blamed the person with the legal right to be in there for politely objecting to his presence and waiting for him to leave.

Why is he not being accused of having a hissy fit or being a drama llama, drama queen etc. Being criticised for crying after being yelled at. Misogynistic terms being used against a woman .... nice.

PRECISELY what did the op do wrong in the scenario, to deserve name calling?

Assigned - Indeed.

Still not to worry, some people don't mind this and are really cool and down wiv the kids so as long as they're alright with it the rest of us, like my friend who would probably be too petrified to use a toilet outside her own home again, can go right under the bus :(

Im glad my Grandma isnt alive to see all this thats going on, she was fiercely pro-womens rights and was so proud that I was growing up in a society that seemed to be starting to put women on a level pegging with men. This would have upset her so much.

Rufus

I get that. And in an ideal world that would happen. But not everything fits neatly into those boxes.

See my post earlier about being on holiday and DH having to use the ladies.

I went shopping a few weeks ago and the mens' loo was out of order - everyone was using the womens'.

As I said until there are adequate facilities built as a minimum standard then there will occur the odd situation where someone has to make a judgement call.

Our local new shopping centre is brilliant. It has male and female loos. Then a whole raft of unisex "family rooms" which contain adult size loos, small size loos and baby changing facilities. Then there are separate disabled loos including one with hoist/larger changing table etc.

That is what EVERYWHERE should be providing

Yes definately should be provided everywhere.

Doubt that will solve the problem.of entitled arseholes though who will spend longer arguing about how stupid someone is being than it would have taken to walk the extra yards to the appropriate facilities

Jaques if a woman was uncomfortable with your husband being in there and waited for him to finish and leave would he verbally assault her on his way out?

Or would he like plenty of fathers have said on other threads on mnet about baby changing facilities simply apologised for having to use the changing area due to lack of facilities and got on with the job and left?