Gender Self Identification debate continued

[PoochSmooch]

Continuation of the thread from here

I am honestly confused loop

I am not trying to be funny

By that definition i am non binary...by that definition i can wear what i want and wear makeup and have short hair and have any name i like (mine is already unisex)

I dont have to ID as non binary...apparently i just am

I dont need to know where non binary people are coming from...as we are all just people

Its going to make no difference to my life IDing as non binary or not

Yes, people present as women to commit crime. No one cares whether they are genuine or not. The fact is many criminals do it.

Transwomen are no different to any other man in terms of the rate at which they commit crime.

Furthermore self declaration will allow anyone to legitimately be there. Whether they are peeping toms, voyeurs, paedophiles, or just doing it because they can.

Good Lord, paedophiles hang around playgrounds for goodness sake. Amongst fully dressed children who are playing. Do you seriously think they won't jump at the chance to enter locker rooms where kids are changing into bathing suits? Or listen to them peeing? Or any number of other opportunities.

Men commit 98% of sexual crime.

Not women.

So if you think that men won't use these laws to predate woman, that's fine then. So women not wanting to be vulnerable around naked strange men means nothing.

Because...?

Transwomen are no different to any other man in terms of the rate at which they commit crime

According to one small survey. But if it's repeated enough, people will believe it.

People keep coming up with all these labels to describe who they are

Pan sexual (i did a quiz)

Non binary

Demi sexual

Agender

Etc

But when someone looks at thise label definitions and says

'But thats me'

People get unhappy (not you loops but someone on another thread seemed awfully unhappy about it) and thinks you are trying to pull a fast one

It seems to be ok for a 16 year old to say i am agender...but not a 47 year old

I self identify as someone who can hold their drink. Its very important to my self image. Therefore I wish that drink driving laws be rescinded.
Most people, i imagine, would only have a glass or two with dinner and would be able to judge themselves how much of a risk they are to others. And if they do cause damage, well there are dangerous driving laws to deal with that. Road users should just accept a level of risk - its unfair to condtrain the rights of people who only want a swift half because some opportunists will take it as permission to drive drunk. People who are unhappy with that level of risk are paranoid hysterics.

Not a perfect analogy but not a million miles away either

Self identification is just too bloody risky, it leaves massive loopholes waiting to be exploited.

Its not out and out perverts and rapists masquerading as tw that bother me as such.

Its more your common or garden obnoxious dickhead who likes to see women discomfited. Street harrassment in the Topshop changing room? 'Like that dress on you, sweetheart' - Sounds like a fun day out for your teen dd with her birthday money.

I should clarify that i did not come out as pansexual when i did the quiz...but it was on their

There

Bloody hell

I am shicked at loopdeloop saying that in a scenario such as that one, the teens options are to move or leave.
Why not. Who needs to traipse down the high street with your buddies looking for that killer outfit when you could just order from asos at home on your own.
That is shocking.
It will become like walking home alone in th e dark. If something happens well, what did she expect?

Has anyone actually been in a bathroom where a man has tried to peep at them, or a trans woman, or seen spy cameras? This is all very worst case scenario, you make it seem like every public bathroom is a potential den of villainy.

Not in a bathroom, no. As I said earlier, if I saw a man in a bathroom and I was alone and felt vulnerable, I would leave. I have, however, been harassed and intimidated by men in many other situations, including parks, bars, cafes, tourist attractions, public transport, walking along the street. I consider myself to have got off very lightly compared to other women though; I have never been raped or been a victim of serious sexual assault.

Just from my own experience, I think that some men will do whatever they can get away with to intimidate women. Self-identification will make it easier for these men.

Ok, but statistically both women and children are more likely to be assaulted or raped or abused by someone they already know. Attacks by strangers make up only about 10% of all incidents (rapecrisis UK) and some of those will be carried out by the same individual. So, yes, men are still offending more, but it's more much more likely to be a man you know than a random trans woman in a bathroom.

I'm pretty sure there's laws about convicted pedophiles being around children.

Again, in the majority of cases where children are harmed by a pedophile it's someone that is known to the child.

Unfortunately there will always be 'first-time' criminals who it turns out worked with children, that's horribly sad, but unless you want to ban men (as they commit the most crimes) from working in schools or in places children might be you can't prevent those people, who have done nothing wrong before they do something wrong, getting access to their victims. We don't have a crystal ball, we can only act on things that arouse suspicion. But being suspicious of a person just living their life, is not helpful, it's actually pretty horrible.

Trans women are no more of a risk than any other strange man, and strange men are statistically safer than men you know.

Oh and I am also 'trans' according to Stonewall as I do not identify with my birth sex and I do not have an intrinsic feeling of being a man or a woman.

Ill tell you why Rufus. Because a 47 yr old shoukd have some bloody sense. If a 16 yr old is wandering around with their head up their arse that is one thing.
A middle age adult shoukd know that no one actually cares about your inner self and how special and musundrrstood you are. 47 yr olds! Dress how you like (even if mutton 😉) Fuck who like (caveats apply)
There are probably 10 people in the world who love you dearly and actually care. The rest of us have our own burdens. Dont add to them

I think that anyone who still has an intact penis should not be allowed into women's prisons, shelters, changing rooms, toilets. That would put off those who thought self identifying was an easy way to get access to women in vulnerable positions.

I don't think that people who started off biological men should ever be allowed to compete in women's sports as they will always have an unfair advantage.

7days really? 1) Nobody mentioned a teen until after I posted that, and if they did sorry for missing it. 2) If the person isn't actually doing anything wrong, why should they leave just because you are uncomfortable, you're the one with the problem. If someone is breastfeeding in public and someone else doesn't like it, should the person stop breastfeeding or should the person who is uncomfortable accept it or leave? If person A is just topless in the middle of a restaurant and person B is uncomfortable, then person B could ask that person A cover themselves up because exhibitionism is not allowed.

If you go in a changing room (admit thinking more 'swimming pool' than shop, as most shops are curtained cubicles) and there's a trans woman getting changed, but not actually doing anything creepy or illegal, and your only issue is that they have a penis, you're the one with the problem.

Chill 7days

Remind me again where i said that i was identified as non binary or that i was going to identify as non binary , just point me in that direction

Where i said those things...

I am referring to loop commenting on people 'joking' about being non gender. Apparently the youth can identify as those things but other people are just joking

For me the fundamental issue is that female-only spaces are defined as female-only spaces because our biology makes us physically vulnerable. This is why female-only spaces are segregated on the basis of biological sex, not on the basis of gender.

This is also why I do NOT want people with a Y chromosome sharing any space where I am vulnerable (partially clothed, recovering from surgery, etc).

Like most women, I have spent my whole life being told not to put myself in harms way in terms of my physical safety, with that risk of harm most definitely coming from men.

In my experience, often people who say "oh don't worry about the innocent transwomen just trying to go about their day to day business, they don't want to hurt you" are men who have never felt the fear that being small and not very strong can bring.

I am not being paranoid on this topic. A brief look at which sex commits most violent crime and sexual crime shows that this wariness is a sensible precaution rather than hype.

Probably a bit too subltle for you 7days

loops I'm genuinely confused by a couple of things you have said:
Gender Identity is how much you feel like a woman/man What does this mean? How do you feel like a woman? I've been one for 52 years and I don't know what you mean. Trans friends can't explain what they mean by it either. Can you?
If you truly believe you are NB then by all means live that, then you might understand where some people who are NB are coming from live like what? How does a non binary person live which is any different from the way I live? I have short hair. I never wear makeup. I only wear a dress/skirt if the occasion really demands it. I do like having my nails done, or a massage. I don't bake, or sew, or knit. I don't do car maintenance or play football. I do quite like decorating and cooking meals. I know these are stereotypical gender signs, but I don't really know where else to look. What is it about my life that tells you I'm not really NB?

rufus pansexual just means you're attracted to people regardless of gender, it can be used interchangeably with bisexual but some people feel that bisexual doesn't accurately express that there are more than two gender identities. It's actually one of the less weird 'new' identities...some are a bit out there, even for me lol

loop

1 in 5 women will experience sexual violence in their lifetime. If 10% of those are strangers that puts the risk at 1 in 50 women who will experience sexual violence from a stranger.

You don't have to use a public loo terribly often to encounter 50 strangers.

noble please don't call me loopy, it's rude.

I misread your name. People call me Nobel all the time, it's hardly important is it?

I'm astonished that you don't seem to think that perverts exist. Given the proportion of women on here that respond to threads saying they've been sexually harrassed, groped, flashed, assaulted and raped, it seems a bit rich to suggest that they shouldn't be wary of a law that allows men to access spaces where they are vulnerable merely by filling in a form.

Loop-
I'm not so sure that a trans-woman care worker would be an unlikely prospect.

Firstly it is not, as you suggest, that unusual to have male carers, when I worked in the care sector about a half of all staff were male.

Secondly, in my area there is a massive shortage of care workers and care work is the most advertised job vacancy. So given that trans women probably face a greater struggle to find employment than most, it is very probable that they would consider care work.

In which case my scenario where a self-identifying trans woman care worker might expect to work with women who require care is much more likely than you seem to imply.

Transwomen are no different to any other man in terms of the rate at which they commit crime

According to one small survey. But if it's repeated enough, people will believe it.

So what? There is no reason to assume that transwomen are different from other males in this (or any other) respect. There might be a small subset of males who identify as trans because they are ashamed of the way their fellow males behave and don't want to be associated with that, but if you argue that transness is about body dysphoria, there's zero reason to assume there would be a difference.

Except for the misogyny shown by transwomen online, which would rather suggest that they are more likely to be violent than the average male.
But since I haven't done a study on this I'll be generous and assume that the rate of crime is exactly the same for all males, regardless of how they identify.