Gender Self Identification debate continued

[PoochSmooch]

Continuation of the thread from here

Threads moving fast loopdeloop. My scenario is this.
Street harrasser wouldn't in a million years rape anyone. But he likes the thought of seeing the look on womens faces when he says something 'ambigous'.
For shits and giggles he strolls into topshop one Saturday afternoon, says that dress is gorgeous on you sweetheart. Who can complain about that? Its only a compliment and hes only one of the girls.
It wouldnt take long for girls to think Nah fuckit, won't try it on will just take it back if it doesn't fit.
Not a major tragedy i agree. But just anothet little piece of freedom chipped away.
If discomfort and a feeling of belonging and acceptance is what is driving this for ordinary tw, why doesnt womens discomfort get considered as well?
We know the world is full of ignorant bozos who do this shit on street corners etc. They'd only love the new avenues this opens up to them.

morning um yes? Well no...like, I'd feel the same being naked in front of any stranger regardless of what their gender/bio sex was. That's why I think that changing rooms without cubicles, that force people to be naked in front of other people, are awful and should be banned for everyone, every single person should have the option to change in private.

cardi no I can't actually explain it, it just is, which is a terrible non-answer but at least it's honest. By live like that, I mean 'come out' as NB in your life, tell your work, your friends, your family, own the label you have chosen for yourself. When there's a form to fill in, if it asks for gender, click none or other, or stress about how there isn't an option and you just have to pick male/female even though you don't HAVE a gender. Obviously if it asks for sex, that's fairly easy.

What is it about my life that tells you I'm not really NB?

The fact that you haven't yet issued death threats to feminists who admitted to being aware of biological facts might be a hint.

Or perhaps it is your failure to request pronouns that people can't pronounce.

I've met some nonbinaries online. They are indistinguishable from other women until they go rabid because you admit to seeing them as adult human females.

Perhaps it is the binding their breasts which makes them so grumpy. It must be painful, and even those who sell the binders admit it is harmful to one's health.

Try wearing a bra two sizes to small and report back if you develop an urge to rip out the throats of women who are aware of basic biology. It might be connected.

Appreciate the thread moves fast 7days but have you come up with any of my posts that said i want to identify as non binary?

Im guessing you just misunderstood what i said as the thread is really shifting

Dont want to add to any problems

Oh rufus stop taking it personally.
Its a generic 'you'. Fuck, pronoun disaster!

Lets try a bit of goodwill here, shall we?
(But of course, that is the crux if the matter, really)

Crap another x post.
Pax?

It is a terrible non answer, loops. And definitely not good enough to base law on. It just is? Nope, not good enough at all, by any standard.
As regards NB - tell people what? Come out as what? A person who likes a few different things, is biologically female but only wears trousers? Who doesn't feel like a woman? Or a man? Who just is a woman because that's what her biology says (which is not an non answer)? Who doesn't want to tick a gender box because gender doesn't exist, but is happy to tick the female box for sex? Because that's me, and all my friends and family know all that stuff about me. Because they know me, and it's all perfectly normal and applies to pretty much everyone.

7 days Ok, I do see your point, the shop again reserves the right to ask people to leave, they'd only be in trouble if they were like 'we're asking you to leave because you're trans' just like they couldn't say 'we're asking you to leave because you're black'. If someone is making a nuisance of themselves then that's a legitimate complaint, no gender ID law will allow people to be asshats unchecked. Just like if a woman was in there being rude to customers, or making unnecessary comments, she'd be asked to leave.

The gender is not the part that matters in that scenario, it's the behaviour.

If you were in the line for the changing room and someone who didn't 'look like a woman' was also in line, just standing there, with clothes to try on, and you asked for them to be removed because they looked like a man and it was making you uncomfortable that would be your problem.

Pax

I dont like being annoyed

And i want to stay reading....

And then i would be all 'dammit' I can't comment cos 7days might notice '

When there's a form to fill in, if it asks for gender, click none or other, or stress about how there isn't an option and you just have to pick male/female even though you don't HAVE a gender.

... this is what I have been doing with all forms I have to fill out for chats. Because I do not WANT a gender, it is a harmful social construct and I want nothing to do with it,even though patriarchy certainly just loves to force it on me. So, congratulations, according to you I am nonbinary now, or what?

Thankfully, in my native language, there is none of that nonsense, there's only one word, which is for actual, real, biological sex, and the word gender is strictly only used to talk about the harmful stereotypes that feminism aims to abolish.

But it was 'just a compliment'
loop. That is the point im making. You cant prove intent. But you can certainly sense it.
These spaces are just going to be uncomfortable places for women. So we just wont put ourselves in that situation

cardi yeh, I know, I am sorry I can't give a better answer. Perhaps if I wasn't a cis woman, I'd better be able to explain how I feel like one? It's one of those things where it would be helpful to be able to 'share consciousness' like on star trek, then we might be able to see what the other people mean. The closest I can get is that I am the child of one italian parent and one english parent, I grew up in both places, I don't feel like completely one or the other. In fact I often used to feel as though I didn't really 'fit' in either place. It's not a great comparison but it works for my understanding of how some NB people might feel.

I agree that the thread is moving super fast, and I am trying to keep up as best I can.

Rufus

This whole thing - I'm reminded of the saying Hard cases make bad law. This us bad law, imo, we can't just rely on people being decent and upstanding. Not everyone is.

I'm sorry, you think someone who isn't actually a woman (I'm one of those who thinks is is unnecessary and borderline offensive) is better placed to say what it feels like to be a woman than an actual woman? That madness. Try replacing 'woman' with Afro Caribbean, or Asian, or Muslim in that sentence and see whether you sound like an outrageous reactionary bigot.

7 days true, although I was always taught that harassment was from the POV of the 'victim'/recipient, so if you were to say you felt harassed by this person's actions that would be sufficient...that was in a PHSE lesson in like 2004 so a while ago, but perhaps if alongside these laws the laws against harassment were tightened that wouldn't be a bad thing. With the caveat that harassment requires some actual behaviour, I don't think you can be harassed by just seeing someone somewhere...unless they've also been doing things to harass you before that?

But Loop why does someone's wish to reveal their penis in an open changing room (agreed, cubicles are better but not always there - certainly not at my local pool) trump my right not to look up from drying my toes and be confronted by one?

Your explanation of NB based on your cultural heritage only serves to reveal how bloody normal it is and how everyone is it really, loops. Gender does not exist, so it's impossible to be comfortable with one type of nonexistent label over another.

cardi there is literally no comparison to that, you can't feel like you're a different race. Like Rachel whatshername who has 2 white parents...she's white. But someone who is white-passing might be of a different race. Like I said, I think that gender identity is biological/has a biological component, just because someone looks male, doesn't mean their gender ID will match...like someone who looks white but isn't.

Muslim is a religion...you can absolutely choose to be a muslim. Religion has absolutely nothing to do with anything because (for the most part) it is a choice.

And what about my right to protection under the law (hypothetical- I am not, nor do I identify as) as a Muslim to remain covered u in front of men (or trans women) ? Is that trumped by someone with a penis wanting to change alongside me?

Trouble is if i saw a trans woman popping into the empty changing room after dd i wouldnt bat an eye

But 6 ft, beard wearing, no make up mens suit follows her ? Fuck that shit

I dont care how he feels inside i will be in the room as well

And maybe thats not fair...after all if it was a short haired non makeup wearing woman I wouldn't care

But i am being transphobic not wanting 'bob' alone in the room with my daughter, even if he is carrying some clothes

Not saying you are saying this loop

Hamlet Ok, but flip that, why does your right to change trump their right to change. Just don't look at other people changing! It's unlikely they'd be waving it about...or maybe they would (do guys do that, that's weird) in which case again, they should make it the law to have cubicles in changing rooms. They could even have those shower cubicles that have a dry area to change, like in hostels, and get rid of communal changing altogether. I don't think anyone should be forced into a situation where they have no choice but to be naked in front of other people, and most pre-surgery trans people will not want to change in public anyway.

Rufus I think that you'd be well within your rights to do that, you would be concerned for your daughter which is absolutely fine to feel. Would I be concerned changing in front of 'a man'? Not if there were cubicles, if not then probably, but again I'd feel the same if it were a woman, don't especially want to be naked in front of strangers at all. If that 'man' was trans and was upset by your actions, I'd feel bad for them, but as long as they were still able to change and continue their life in peace then fine...people are judged all the time by other people, it's just how humans make sense of the world.

People with penises all change together, People without penises all change together. Simples.

Ds1 keeps telling not to assume their gender

So i say 'put that in your brothers room'

And he says

'Don't assume his gender'

Etc

He is going to get a slap...a gender free one

He is trying to wind me up