Gender Self Identification debate continued

[PoochSmooch]

Continuation of the thread from here

Women are a marginalised identity reality who face the biggest negative effect if this becomes law, and they haven't been given a platform to express this.

However, if womanhood is an identity, then women are well within their rights to complete the survey as they are identifying as women.

Personally (I may be wrong of course) I think that gender identity is a 'fact' and is caused by a combination of genetics and other factors.

I don't disagree that there may be some kind of biological blip that makes people feel uneasy in their sex, perhaps like anorexia, or transablism.

But firstly, they still have a male body. And everything that entails. They do not have a female body and everything that entails.

Secondly, they will (mostly) be socialised and treated as their natal sex (see feminism).

And thirdly, it's a little difficult to take when you are told to suck their dick if you disagree. Or they will 'rape that attitude out of you'.

It's also difficult to handle when they claim they have periods, when they buy Tampax and when they buy menstruation kits to mimic menstruation.

So whilst I agree that gender dysphoria is real, for whatever reason, it's no basis for being able to legally become the opposite sex.

I can absolutely understand how presenting as the opposite sex can alleviate symptoms of gender dysphoria. I really do.

I don't agree that should then extend to the elimination of sex as a category.

I don't agree that transwomen are women. I don't agree that your brain determines what sex you are. Because your sex is simply that, your biology.

It doesn't mean they can't be included in all sorts of things. That they can't be accepted.

But when you get told that a male bodied person is actually a biological female, therefore their penis is female, therefore lesbians should sleep with them, therefore people who actually have female anatomy, are privileged over them - sorry but no.

It just shouts man, to me. Women, shut the fuck up and do what you're told.

And, of course, I realise that many transwomen do not do these things.

And if you are acquainted with, or are one of those, you would be as aghast as I am.

Nonetheless, it is these other awful people who are pushing the agenda.

Gone are the days when a transsexual could slip into the ladies, be accepted as a courtesy, and just live their life. They are now in the minority.

Idiot transactivists have politicised this issue and forced people to take a polarised opinion.

And they are. And gemuine transsexuals and women are going to get the backlash.

Women are a marginalised identity reality who face the biggest negative effect if this becomes law, and they haven't been given a platform to express this.

To be fair, the current survey is not the consultation on the full-time that is due to come out in the autumn, so women will presumably be able to comment then once we know more about the wording of the bill.

I did briefly consider filling in the survey myself. I'm heterosexual, but I am definitely NOT 'cis' anything and in fact I do feel discriminated against because of my gender identity - technically, I'm not supposed to be a Brownie leader because I don't 'identify as a woman'. The only reason I haven't filled in the survey is because I think it will give the government lots of the type of evidence that they want.

I know, right noble?

It's all very meta. MY self-identification is valid and necessary and no threat to your rights. YOUR self-identification is false and opportunistic and a threat to my rights.

Is that right?

consultation on the bill* that should say

I'm from a sciencey / medical background and so have quite a black and white view about sex changes. I'm sure most people would agree that body integrity identity disorder (BIID) is a severe psychological disorder. There have been numerous cases of people who have sought to injure themselves in order to remove limbs as they just feel they shouldn't have them. There was a doctor (Dr Smith) who performed amputations on a few to remove limbs. I think most people see this as very unethical and extreme?
So can someone explain to me how having a limb or several limbs removed is any more extreme than having your genitals or breasts cut off is any different? Why is one a psychological disorder, and the other we are meant to blindly accept and go along with as if it's totally normal to butcher our bodies?!

beyond did you stop reading after I said that and then miss the literal words where I said I didn't mean people who are actually LGB (or T of course) but rather the people pretending to be non-binary or another marginalised identity for the purposes of getting their gross opinions in?

You seem to be one for caring about skewed statistics, what about all these responses that will show zero discrimination or abuse for non-binary or trans people, with then just a long comment at the end about how trans people are stealing women's rights? The results of this survey could impact equality legislation for all marginalised groups.

noble self-ID yes, pretending...no. I, unlike a lot of people here, don't actually think that anyone is going to bother going to the expense or hassle of pretending to be trans to access spaces they could access as men (changing rooms, toilets) and only might be able to access as women (rape-crisis centres, schools). Of course, if you think all trans women are only pretending to be women then you likely won't see a difference.

Given that the majority of non-binary people appear to be indistinguishable from us regular boring binary types, I'm not sure exactly what abuse they face.

But Loops it's not ok that hugely vulnerable women are put in the position where it might happen. It means the space is no longer safe.

And single sex MH wards? Where a huge proportion of the women have been sexually abused? Why should they be made to feel more vulnerable?

I double checked non binary

Many non-binary people wish to appear androgynous and adopt unisex names, gender-neutral titles such as Mx. and/or gender-neutral pronouns, but others prefer to express themselves in ways which are traditionally seen as masculine or feminine or to mix aspects of the two.

I am probably missing something but does the above not cover just about everyone

I, unlike a lot of people here, don't actually think that anyone is going to bother going to the expense or hassle of pretending to be trans to access spaces they could access as men (changing rooms, toilets) and only might be able to access as women (rape-crisis centres, schools

Firstly - they already have.

Secondly - there's no 'expense' or 'hassle' involved if the bill goes ahead. Just filling in a form. That's it.

No need really even to do that - who's going to check? If you disagree, you're a bigot, hey?

Have you heard of Danielle Muscato? Have a Google, and tell us what you think.

Cross post with sleigh

So in theory if the above did ring true for me then that would make me non binary

Yeah?

And then in good conscience i could fill in that survey...is that right?

I'm not going to...but i could, right?

don't actually think that anyone is going to bother going to the expense or hassle of pretending to be trans to access spaces they could access as men (changing rooms, toilets)

The whole point of the proposal is to remove expense and hassle. Do you really think there aren't any men out there who given the option of filling out a form to gain access to female spaces, changing rooms etc and for people not to be allowed to throw them out, they'd just go 'oh, that's too much trouble, I'll just stick with trying to conceal cameras in there instead'?

By all the definitions that I've read, I am indeed non binary. Many feminists are because we don't subscribe to rigid notions of gender roles. In addition, I was significantly distressed by going through puberty as i felt completely alienated from my body. Also I'm agender, because I don't have a gender identity. Is that "gross"?

As it goes, I didn't fill in the survey.

self-ID yes, pretending...no

But I do identify as non-binary, I'm not pretending. Gender stereotypes are a damaging load of tripe and I don't "feel like a woman". I feel like a person.

So I feel entirely entitled to answer the consultation survey.

Agree with pooch and sema

If i need to give myself a gender label in the future then thats mine

Gender-identity and gender-expression are not the same thing. Gender stereotypes often refer to gender-expression (what people look like, their clothes, their hobbies, their preferences) being traditionally masculine or feminine. That's where gender can be negative and also where gender performance happens. Gender Identity is how much you feel like a woman/man.

Trans people often can't win with TERFs (not using that as an insult, just an acronym) because if they try to 'pass' they are performing gender and fulfilling gender stereotypes and trying to be what they 'think' a woman is. If they don't try to pass they are just a man, not trying hard enough, just a creep.

sleigh because bisexual people or asexual people LOOK a specific way? Like, what kind of argument is that? Like any form of discrimination it usually requires that the people around you know that you ID that way, or they don't know and say crappy things around you? Either of those situations can apply to an NB person, or this thread where people are joking about how they don't believe in gender so must be NB. If someone who is NB reads this, do you not think they might be upset by it?

No I categorically don't think that a male criminal is going to go fill in a form before committing a crime, or a male is going to fill in a form to then be able to apply for a job at a rape crisis centre...a job he might not even get. I definitely don't think a creepy guy is going to fill in a form to walk into a women's toilet or changing room, to then be asked to leave because he's watching women change or just standing in the bathroom. Why not just do that as a man, the end result is the same.

Nobody has actually said what benefit there is to men IDing as women, it's not like a natal woman can creep on other natal women in the toilet or changing room and get away with it just because she has a vagina.

Has anyone actually been in a bathroom where a man has tried to peep at them, or a trans woman, or seen spy cameras? This is all very worst case scenario, you make it seem like every public bathroom is a potential den of villainy. Most people just go in to pee.

What about care provision when women-particularly the frail elderly-request a female carer for assistance with bathing, toileting etc?

If the care provider did not offer that work to a self identifying trans woman care worker, would they be able to sue them for discrimination?

Sounds like a bonanza for lawyers

self-ID yes, pretending...no. I, unlike a lot of people here, don't actually think that anyone is going to bother going to the expense or hassle of pretending to be trans to access spaces they could access as men (changing rooms, toilets) and only might be able to access as women (rape-crisis centres, schools)

What expense? What hassle? The whole point of this law is to remove all and any gatekeeping whatsoever.

Self exclamation means exactly that. In fact there will be no declaration. What's the point?

r this thread where people are joking about how they don't believe in gender so must be NB. If someone who is NB reads this, do you not think they might be upset by it?

Why do you think some people are joking

I have never felt like a girl or woman...i didnt even know it was a thing til i read about it online

Ds1 is 18 and a number of his friends identity as non binary. That seems to be ok, the school is very inclusive

That situation would be interesting...and also not all that likely in the grand scheme of things. The things that would need to happen for that situation to arise. Firstly, someone who is already a male care-worker (not that many to start with) then someone in that limited number also being trans (number shrinks even further) then that person being put in a situation that an elderly or vulnerable female person doesn't want that trans person working with them. Assuming that all fell into place, you'd probably find that the care provider (as long as they reassigned that care worker to a different, equal, role) would be fine. People can request a different carer/doctor/nurse/midwife for whatever reason, and it's usually accepted without argument. The trans-person could I suppose try and sue the client, but that would also require that the trans woman carer (small number) also be an asshole (smaller number again).

Again, this is a huge amount of catastrophising for something that nobody actually knows how it will go. None of us can see into the future, and as other countries that have this legislation exist and none of them have collapsed into fire and brimstone just yet, it might all be a lot of anxious words for no reason.

Loopy, as far as I understand it, a creepy man can be asked to leave the women's toilets/changing rooms. Under the new proposals, the creepy man who has filled out a form can't be asked to leave the changing room, because legally they're a woman, and allowed to be in there.

rufus not "joking" that you don't believe, joking that not believing is the same as actually IDing as and living as someone who is NB. If you truly believe you are NB then by all means live that, then you might understand where some people who are NB are coming from. I'm glad your DS's friends are doing well, schools and universities are doing a lot to be more inclusive.

Datun I would imagine you would still be required to pay a fee or fill in some kind of request form to get a new birth certificate or gender recognition certificate?

noble please don't call me loopy, it's rude.

If the person is actually doing something creepy or inappropriate you can ask them to leave or inform staff regardless of their gender. If you just think a person is creepy by their appearance then that's kind of your problem. You can move, or leave.