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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Gender Self Identification debate continued

617 replies

PoochSmooch · 25/07/2017 07:36

Continuation of the thread from here

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
IamalsoSpartacus · 27/07/2017 23:12

In my friendship group it's the men who are most in favour of things like Bruce Springsteen boycotting the states that supported bathroom bills. And I wondered - men are socialised from an early age to get their penises out in front of other men to use urinals. Do you think they genuinely can't understand why some women have an issue with cock on display in public loos?

busyboysmum · 27/07/2017 23:19

My husband has always said how he hates going urinals. Apparently you get gay blokes eying up your penis openly all the time. He finds it really unpleasant.

VestalVirgin · 28/07/2017 09:58

My husband has always said how he hates going urinals. Apparently you get gay blokes eying up your penis openly all the time. He finds it really unpleasant.

Perhaps some men think women feel the same about lesbians in their spaces and sex segregation isn't about people having privacy and being comfortable, but just random / invented for the explicit purpose of validating genderfeelz?

Just a random thought because a poster in another trans thread basically compared lesbians to predatory males and claimed it was just the same whether there was a lesbian on a female only floor or a male. Confused

(That poster claims to be female, but on the internet, you never know)

I realise other people may feel very differently about this - and that's ok - but I do wonder if at some point these young people, when they get out into the workplace, or the 'real' world, will find that its perhaps not so easy or convenient to have to explain to everyone that today they're 'he' but tomorrow might be 'she' depending on mood.

Oh, I dunno, many workplaces nowaday cater to this. So the ones for whom it is a hassle are the coworkers.
I read an article about a non-binary person who used neutral pronouns for everyone else, and then got offended when a female coworker, quite reasonably, wanted female pronouns and - that was the coworkers mistake - admitted that she was not trans. Just a woman who was comfortable in her own body and didn't want to get used to a new set of pronouns for no sensible reason whatsoever.

I don't know if she managed to get the coworker fired as apparently it was a letter to an advice column, asking whether to try and get the coworker fired, but it was pretty horrifying.

(I, too, have been misgendered by a nonbinary person. Not as neutral, even, but as male. I was offended. I don't really care about pronouns, but I hate, hate, hate getting letters adressed to a male because of this "male is default" thinking. I really despise people who want their own feelings coddled, and then do not afford others even the barest courtesy.)

Rumandraisin1 · 28/07/2017 11:39

Can I just recap the main action points in case I've missed any somewhere in the long thread?

  • Sign petition against the 38 degrees petition being removed
  • Complete the LGBT survey
  • Write to MP

Is there anything else I should be doing? Is it worth writing to anyone else e.g. Jeremy Corbyn, Justine Greening, the PM?

Datun · 28/07/2017 11:49

Rumandraisin1

Are you on the Facebook page? Some good ideas on there. See this thread for how to join.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2988720-Facebook-group

VestalVirgin · 28/07/2017 21:59

I didn't know it was still possible to publish such articles. After all the censoring that has taken place.

Great to see, I hope this means people are waking up.

notoneofyou · 29/07/2017 06:33

Yeah but "Ciarán Kelly is head of communications at the Christian Institute".

... so most people will just dismiss it assuming it's religious bigotry.

PencilsInSpace · 29/07/2017 10:18

Very good Times article today: How do you solve a problem like men in women’s changing rooms, Maria? by Janice Turner - 'I put to Maria Miller women's concerns about implications of trans "self identity". She threatens to walk out.'

VestalVirgin · 29/07/2017 10:29

... so most people will just dismiss it assuming it's religious bigotry.

I hope people will read it in the printed Times before they get to the information of the author.

There are some people who haven't heard of this gender nonsense yet (I assume?) and will immediately see the truth of this, and not change their opinion when they hear the transwacktivists' misogynist drivel.

I hope.

noblegiraffe · 29/07/2017 11:31

I think it's interesting that these pieces are appearing in the traditionally conservative press, and that this is a proposal by the Conservative party. If this announcement ahead of a consultation was a case of running it up the flagpole, their traditional supporters aren't saluting. It would take a strong leader to push it through (like Cameron and gay marriage) and they don't have one.

What it does do is publicly say 'yeah, we know you're pissed off that we spent a billion or so buying votes from the DUP and they hate gays, but look, we're not like that.'

It wasn't Theresa May who made this announcement, it was Justine Greening. Expendable.

nauticant · 29/07/2017 11:41

I thought Janice Turner's trans critical piece in today's The Times was very good. It's the first time I've seen a high profile journalist look properly at the issues critically and at reasonable length. I read it with a growing sense of disbelief that finally some rational trans critical views were being presented in the mainstream.

It came about because Janice Turner was interviewing Maria Miller for one of those soft soap pieces where, following nice and friendly questions, a politician is able to present themselves as human, thoughtful, and generally decent. However, Turner took the opportunity to ask Miller about gender (really sex) self-definition, and in particular about:

  • female only spaces, single-sex wards, changing rooms, domestic violence refuges
  • Danielle Muscato (and Alex Drummond)
  • sport
  • pressure to trans for children, particularly girls

Miller did not like it at all and came out with the following:

  • people were uncomfortable about gays 50 years ago
  • "you cannot disregard the rights of 600,000 people"
  • it's not easy [subtext: others can sort out the mess it'll create]
  • she would not confirm that the new self-definition process would ever examine an application to self-define
  • it's up to refuges to carry out a risk assessment before allowing access
  • crime statistics to be "registered in the gender of the person when they committed the crime"
  • sport: "professional bodies have to deal with that"
  • when asked whether the "epidemic" of girls wanting to trans reflects rigid gender structures and not being "born in wrong body" and requiring hormones, Miller threatened to walk out of the interview
  • Miller really hated the suggestion that the "government's sudden announcement of trans reform is to counter bad publicity garnered by allying with the anti-gay marriage DUP or to win young votes"

It gave me a little hope that these changes might be made in the face of broader criticism that those making the changes want to close their eyes and ears to the potential myriad problems.

There's an unfortunate bit of timing though. In her regular column Turner also criticised the #savecharliegard campaign and her name might be mud at the moment.

CastIronCookware · 29/07/2017 11:55

I took a risk earlier this week, and asked a political intern who I know through work what her view was on self-identification.
She said that she, and all of her social circle from across the political spectrum, are horrified by the proposal.
When I asked if they were going to speak out, she said absolutely not, it would be career suicide.

This is being driven by the likes of Maria Miller; there is a political agenda which I haven't quite worked out yet.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 29/07/2017 12:07

There does seem to be a lot more trans critical pieces in mainstream places at the moment. I find myself hoping that this is the beginning of a proper backlash, a beginning of people actually thinking about what trans means. I sense I may be being overly optimistic though.

VestalVirgin · 29/07/2017 12:12

I find myself hoping that this is the beginning of a proper backlash, a beginning of people actually thinking about what trans means. I sense I may be being overly optimistic though.

I feel about the same.

It would be great if there was a backlash, but seeing as how long it has gone on unchallenged ...

Datun · 29/07/2017 12:12

Has anyone got the time to cut and paste that Times article? It's behind a pay wall.

Anlaf · 29/07/2017 12:37

Janice Turner Times article
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/89e2bd02-73bd-11e7-83f1-667fddf1d78f

Maria Miller gathers up her handbag and makes to leave: “I don’t think I’m happy about this. I think I’ve finished . . . I didn’t realise this was such a stitch-up.” I’ve been questioning Ms Miller about a report on transgender rights she produced last year as chairwoman of the women and equalities committee. The government has just announced that it will go to further consultation this autumn.

Many of its recommendations, to redress hate crime against transgender people, to improve access to NHS services and stop discrimination in employment (as seen in President Trump’s cruel, summary banning of up to 6,600 transgender US military personnel), are widely supported. But one proposal that seeks to change the very definition of “man” and “woman” has far-reaching implications.

Justine Greening, the equalities minister, announced her support this week for changes to the 2004 Gender Recognition Act, echoing calls by Jeremy Corbyn, the Labour leader. At present a person who wishes to change gender legally must be 18, demonstrate they have lived in their chosen gender for two years, have a diagnosis of “gender dysphoria” (a mental disorder whereby a person feels they don’t feel they belong in their biological sex) and be questioned by an expert panel.

The heart of the controversy is the view, espoused by Ms Miller’s report, that switching gender should instead merely be a matter of “self-definition”. A man need only “declare” that he is a woman. Your gender is what you feel it to be: there would be no requirement even to take female hormones or have surgery — about 70 per cent of trans women still have intact male genitals — or even “present” as a woman to be legally female. (Some older trans people are troubled by this, believing that it trivialises and delegitimises their struggles to live in their non-birth gender.)

Furthermore, if the law changes, “gender identity” is likely to become a protected characteristic under equalities legislation: ie if you deny a person is a woman or a man when they claim to be, you are guilty of discrimination or hate crime.

When Ms Miller, 53, released her report in January last year she was surprised that criticism came not from conservatives but, as she put it, “women who purport to be feminists”. This may be because feminists, well versed in sexual politics and long-time supporters of gay rights, are among the few people who can penetrate the arcane, confusing terminology.

Many see potential loopholes and conflicts of rights that put women at risk, giving men access to rare female-only spaces such as single-sex wards, changing rooms and domestic violence refuges, designed to keep them safe and private. It is these concerns I put to Ms Miller in her Basingstoke constituency.

Take this scenario: a man enters a female communal changing area, removes his clothes while women get undressed. Now they have a right to ask him to leave. Under gender self-definition, if he said “I identify as a woman” he would be entitled to stay. This, I stress, is unlikely to be a trans woman — many who use women’s changing rooms every day with discretion and no fuss — but could be a sexual predator exploiting the loophole. (There have been a growing number of cases in the US, including a man in Seattle using women’s pool facilities claiming “the law has changed, I have a right to be here”.) Does Ms Miller not see why women fear a conflict of rights?

“But 50 years ago, maybe ten years ago, people felt very uncomfortable about gay people showing their relationships in public but life has moved on.” This isn’t a question of feelings, however, but of physical safety and privacy which, as the author of another report on sexual abuse, she surely understands?

You cannot disregard the rights of 600,000 people in this country
I show her a photograph of a bearded, male-born American called Danielle Muscato who dresses in men’s suits and ties, has made no attempt to transition but nonetheless “identifies as female” and insists on living in a women’s homeless shelter. On International Women’s Day he tweeted: “Some women have penises. If you’re bothered by this, you can suck my dick.”Alex Drummond is a lush-bearded British psychotherapist who claims to be a woman, without any transition, who is “expanding the bandwidth of gender.”

These people should be free from all abuse and discrimination, but do they have the right to women’s spaces? “There will be individuals who will try to use this as an abuse of the system but you cannot disregard the rights of 600,000 people in this country,” Ms Miller says, referring to an estimate of people who express unhappiness with their birth gender. But can you ignore the rights of 30 million women? “No. And nobody’s suggesting that that’s the case.”

So do you think that women and girls should have a right to object to male-bodied individuals undressing among them. “How an individual presents themselves is really up to them,” she says. “Nobody is saying this is an easy set of decisions. I think that is a legitimate part of the consultation.”

Ms Miller says that self-definition is misunderstood “as some amateurish way of trying to recognise somebody’s change. In our report we made it very clear that this would not simply be somebody being able to pull a form off the internet, sign it and call themselves a woman because that would be open to abuse.” Her committee envisaged each person receiving “psychological support . . . to make sure that they’re making the right decision for them” instead of “this quasi-medicalised panel which has brought great distress to transgender people”. She would not confirm that the new self-definition process would ever query an application.

[Any criminal offence} should be registered in the gender of the person when they committed the crime
How does she think this rule will effect the operation of women’s domestic violence refuges, several of which submitted concerns to her inquiry that clients would be distressed having fled brutal men if male-bodied individuals were granted access. In Toronto, Christopher Hambrook claimed to be a trans woman to access a refuge then raped residents. “These spaces carry out a risk assessment before individuals are allowed to use them and those that pose a risk to safety are not necessarily one gender.” But 90 per cent of violent crime and 98 per cent of sexual crime is committed by men. Trans women, such as Davina Ayrton, who raped a 15-year-old girl, have been convicted of offences seldom committed by natal females. Would self-identification mean these crimes would be registered as committed by women, skewing the figures? “It should be registered in the gender of the person when they committed the crime.” This would mean that if Katie Brannen, charged with twice raping a man in South Shields, is convicted that crime would be recorded on female statistics even though legally women cannot commit rape.

Sport is another problematic area: self-identification could destroy women’s competitions, allowing former-men with greater musculature and testosterone to dominate. In New Zealand a weightlifter, Laurel Hubbard, has broken national records; in Canada the mountain biker Michelle Dumaresq dominated for years. “Those are already issues that professional bodies have to deal with. And again that is something which needs to be looked at in significant detail.”

I ask her about school sports. In Connecticut Andraya Yearwood, a male-bodied, moustachioed 15-year-old trans girl, has won state championships although she would have finished last in the boys’ competition. Does Ms Miller think this fair to the girl athletes? “Well, I think it’s a bit of a difficult one to answer because boys are not going through gender reassignment when they’re at school.” But what would you say to the girls who lost? “It’s a very difficult one to answer . . .”

She adds: “What I think we’re touching on here is that trans issues are something that still strike a nerve in British society.” Compiling her report she was moved by young trans folk “just trying to get on with their lives in a quiet manner . . . The idea of individuals being not of one gender or another is not a new thing.”

There are always jagged edges to the law which create tensions, and we are going into new territory here
Yet this very idea of “non-binary” or “gender fluidity” is challenged by feminists. Because it assumes that being female is a narrow category: involving pink, make-up, girlie pursuits as opposed to the male world of noise, fun and muddy sports. Isn’t the epidemic of girls wanting to transition — they make up 1,000 out of the Tavistock clinic’s 1,400 referrals — a rebellion against society’s rigid gender strictures rather than a sign that they were “born in the wrong body” and require hormones? This is around the point at which Ms Miller threatens to leave. She relents and we talk a little longer. Although Ms Miller as equalities minister guided gay marriage through parliament, she is at heart a home counties conservative who in 2007 voted against regulations to stop discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation. She voted to lower the abortion limit to 20 weeks and for a Nadine Dorries amendment to stop abortion providers such as Marie Stopes giving counselling.

She looks alarmed when I ask about these stances and instead seizes on the government’s decision — pushed by Labour’s Stella Creasy — to fund NHS abortions of women in Northern Ireland. “It is a sticking plaster for the short term. There should be equal rights for women across the UK.” But wouldn’t this mean overriding the devolved assembly, whose major party the DUP is in coalition with the Tories? “I think this should be seen as a human rights issue and I’m glad it is in front of the Supreme Court.”

What does she say to those who believe the government’s sudden announcement of trans reform is to counter bad publicity garnered by allying with the anti-gay marriage DUP or to win young votes. “Absolutely ludicrous!” she cries.

She says that her experience as a woman and a mother who has faced discrimination and sexism has made her receptive to the rights of minority groups such as trans people and their families. She puts the concerns of feminists about material changes to their rights and safety into the same category as religious objections, like those of the Christian bakers who refused to make a cake for a gay couple. “There are always jagged edges to the law which create tensions, and we are going into new territory here.”

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 29/07/2017 12:50

Thanks Anlaf

It seems quite clear that the government is unable to critically think about things. They seem to accept what they are told at face value, blindly accepting things without actually thinking about them properly. They agree with soundbites, but don't understand or think about substance.

I'm sorry to drag Brexit into this but this whole trans thing is like the whole we'll leave Europe and regain our sovereignty. It all seems very nice and simple on the surface, but if you start digging you reveal massively complex issues which the government and the.media make little effort to engage with.

It's shocking that Miller was.blindsided by these questions, it's her baby, her area of expertise. It's not unreasonable to expect her to have fucking thought about these issues, or at the very least heard of them! Hmm

VestalVirgin · 29/07/2017 12:50

But what would you say to the girls who lost? “It’s a very difficult one to answer . . .”

Is it just me or are all her answers to questions about women's safety and rights to compete in sports, etc, just a lot of hot air and "it is sooo difficult" excuses?

If she cannot answer those questions, then why the fuck does she feel justified in subjecting women to this half-cooked legislation?

Datun · 29/07/2017 13:00

Anlaf

Thank you. Very kind.

How can Maria Miller is so blind to this issue? She clearly, clearly has not thought through the implications.

She's a woman. She has faced sexism and discrimination. She works in a world of men. How can she not see this?

Apart from anything else, the very fact that you are changing the law that could negatively affect every single person in the country, for 600,000 people, is madness!

There is no way she is thinking of those people. Not for a second. This is a highly manipulative political agenda.

And vote winning and popularity is the only political agenda that matters.

Does she seriously think that the general public is going to accept this without objection? She is lighting a tinderbox.

yallcrazy · 29/07/2017 13:01

"Does she seriously think that the general public is going to accept this without objection?"

Based on the proportion of replies on Mumsnet ... yes. And she'd be right!

nauticant · 29/07/2017 13:07

How can Maria Miller is so blind to this issue? She clearly, clearly has not thought through the implications.

I believe she has done a broad assessment that the political gains are high and potential political losses could be low. Beyond that I think she's not particularly interested.

Apart from anything else, the very fact that you are changing the law that could negatively affect every single person in the country, for 600,000 people, is madness!

This approach has been shouted down continually since this EU Referendum every time people have asked about the interest of Remainers. It's clear that Miller et al believe the views of the (probably inflated) 600,000 to be especially valuable for some reason.

noblegiraffe · 29/07/2017 13:08

Presumably no one wants a backlash against trans people. The quiet ones, trying to go about their lives who never wanted this attention. The Hayley Croppers.

SchadenfreudePersonified · 29/07/2017 13:16

What transactivists are asking for is not for their gender identity to be recognised, but to be treated as if they were a member of the opposite biological sex. Men and women's sports are differentiated very clearly by biological sex, not by gender; the same applies to men and women's prisons. Someone who is biologically male but with a female gender identity should not therefore be allowed to participate in sports only open to people who are biologically female. Yet this is the right that transactivists are demanding.

This

And we will ALL suffer for it.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 29/07/2017 13:16

Presumably no one wants a backlash against trans people.

If that was referring to my comment I phrased it badly. I meant a backlash against the unquestioning orthodoxy of gender = sex, and that gender (and therefore sex) are are a matter of self identity.