Gender Self Identification debate continued

[PoochSmooch]

Continuation of the thread from here

Datun I think what we are witnessing is simply a perfect storm. All factors converging at once to create something bigger than the norm.

I don't want to bash youth but seriously when you have the anonymity of social media, the mob mentality, the echo chambers of only ever hearing supportive views, the promotion of easily available and heavily funded bad science, a lack of critical thinking and a sense that the future belongs to you, it's no wonder that you have a sense of entitlement far beyond that which is deserved.

Add into the mix, the backlash against women and against gay rights, the polarisation of politics, the economic climate, the belief that youth is good, innocent, unselfish and community minded, that beauty is heavily rewarded and that our bodies are adaptable at will, that self expression is always true and authentic, that liberalism has gone too far, that the right are small minded and mean.

Those videos are pretty much what I'd expect from a society that knows what they say can go viral within moments and that they can be vilified worldwide. Who wouldn't be cautious and go to extremes to be as deliberately unoffensive and virtue signalling as it was possible to be ? They've been told that words are violent and kill transpeople which has taken away their ability to debate and reason.

And I think what we're missing in all of this is the sophistication in how online social media and activism integrate and chisel away at social norms and culture. We see the approach turn from loud and violent online to largely quiet, thoughtful, civic minded approaches in real life. We see a cleansing of the online trans narrative and approach, an appeal to humanity so we talk about their murder, their erasure, we talk about suicidal children, we talk about inclusion and words harming people. And suddenly we have something that politicans can latch on to and a tribalism that forces people to adopt all the beliefs of their party. Suddenly the middle disappears and where we would usually see a correction of that over time, we've never lived in a world where so much effort has been put into the manipulation of society online. Fake news is real, real news is fake.

I don't think there is a huge conspiracy but I do think there is funding, lobbying and manipulation going on. And it's by those whose interests won't be harmed one way or another in this debate - men.

I like your analysis, blistory.

I have just read "On Tyranny: Twenty Lessons from the Twentieth Century" by Timothy Snyder, which is a short book looking at how we can draw parallels between what happened in the rise of authoritarian regimes in the 20th century (Facism & Communism) and what is happening right now in the political landscape (Trump, Brexit, rise of nationalism). One of the lessons is about the importance of organising face to face, human to human, to agitate for change, for exactly the reasons that you highlight in your post.

I highly recommend it to everyone. I don't think history necessarily repeats itself, but it can surely tell us what might happen if we allow ourselves to be pushed in certain directions.

Not read the full thread, but there's an excellent article in the Times this morning by Clare Foges. I was particularly struck by this:

Let us call it Rosa Parks Syndrome (RPS)...Parks risked her safety to fight real injustice and is rightly hailed a hero. Today, those in the grip of RPS yearn to have similarly important battles to fight. Never mind that all of the great legislative battles on equality have been won, they long to find the next progressive frontier; plant the flag of justice in fresh territory; find a new issue about which they can proclaim they are on "the right side of history". This week it became clear that the cabinet minister Justine Greenins is afflicted with a severe case of RPS.

The article goes on to talk about the possible effect on children's mental health. "Instead of 'liberating' children from social constructs, the new orthodoxy on gender identity gives them the burden of endless choice and introspection to work out who they really are". (She agrees, however, that small numbers of children have feelings of gender dysphoria that require serious clinical intervention.) But we must be very careful that in seeking to support the tiny minority of children who feel trapped in the wrong body we do not create a world of confusion and anxiety for the rest.

Blistory

That's chilling. I'm also beginning to see a few lightbulbs popping.

Online communication is making what traditionally one might have called a youth movement, into something completely different.

You're right about it changing culture in general, not just a contained rebellion that diminishes with maturity.

I have seen several predictions along the lines of this is 'the slow destruction of civilisation'. At first I just dismissed them, but you are talking about anthropologists and historians. And the same theory keeps coming up.

The blatant (and complacent) silencing of women and dissent, coupled with the extraordinary acceptance of someone like Trump is frightening.

There are protocols in place in the US that if your parents disagree with allowing you to transition, you can get a court order. Or you can be taken away.

It's as though nothing is 'wrong' anymore and people have either lost, or have been stripped of, the ability to say it is.

I am going to think on. Thank you for your post.

kesstrel Rosa Parks Syndrome is an interesting way of looking at this. Though I think most of those afflicted don't really want to have similarly important battles to fight. Because it would be dangerous for them to actually oppose oppressors. Had they lived in the times gone by, they wouldn't have been Rosa Parks. They'd have been meek bystanders who would have mumbled about Rosa Parks going too far.

I am honest enough with myself to admit that if I had lived in the times of the suffragettes, I would probably not have been one of the women on the front line. I'd have collected newspaper articles on the heros of the movement and quietly pointed out to my friends that I would find it rather nice to have voting rights, but that would have been it.

But full-blown Rosa Parks Syndrome is a delusion - the people afflicted scream "oppression" all the while being fully aware that there is zero risk they will be in any way harmed by their alleged oppressors, the radical feminists whom they so hate. If they actually thought about just what immense risk to herself Rosa Parks took at the time, they'd realize the stark difference to their cosy "activism" that consists of kicking an oppressed minority (women) that is not likely to ever fight back.

... sorry, of course women are not a minority. Had intended to write radical feminists at first, who are indeed an oppressed minority ... but it is not only radical feminists whom genderists force to give up their spaces, it is all women.

I agree that genuine transsexuals say they knew from early childhood. Which, from what I can tell, goes against the medical studies. Gender dysphoria is supposed to kick in at puberty. But many of them say then knew long before then.

That could be explained by confirmation bias. I think there's a few of us on here that have said we could have ended up trans if we'd been born later. I spent a significant time as a child living "as a boy" so I could look back on that and say it was evidence that I'd always known if I was trans, whereas actually there might be just as many or more people with the same experience that now live quite happily with our biological sex.

Can someone who is pro gender self identification please explain why they think a small number of extremely vocal men are so desperate to declare themselves lesbians and access women only spaces please?

Plus why they have the ear of the politicians and so many other people.

Blistering analysis from Blistory. Love RPS too.

I think it's only chilling if we don't move forwards from it.

And the point about face to face contact made above by the OP is hugely important and has been overlooked in this battle with transactivisim. It's easy for TRAs to scorn Germaine Greer et al online but try telling her to her face that she's a bitter, twisted terf with no humanity and it becomes difficult. Because most of us simply can't deny someone's humanity when we're looking into their eyes. Social norms and a sense of rightness compels us to listen and try not to hurt.

Some of that constraint can be overridden even in personal contact by mob mentality but that's actually the one thing that the TRAs don't seem to have been able to achieve - they don't seem able to mobilise large groups in real life very effectively nor are they able to confront individual women face to face.

We need to simply talk to the women, men and children in our lives. That's where our win will come.

Article in the Evening Standard last night by a teenage girl, bemoaning the fact that her lovely friend who identifies as female couldn't go in the changing rooms with them and how the world will soon change blah de blah and how gender neutral toilets should be the norm etc etc.

That's the problem. So many young people are indoctrinated via social media into not thinking. Because thinking and questioning no longer seem to be good things, but bad .

lady
So many young people are indoctrinated via social media into not thinking. Because thinking and questioning no longer seem to be good things, but bad .
^^ this
The young have generally not been very good (at their age) of 'critical thinking' - hence their love for JC and the EU among others. With life comes the ability to see past the brainwashing/indoctrination from both left and right.
I would also suggest that it is not just social media - add in the effect of the left-leaning/liberalist education system in the UK

UM Ollie apart from his stance in this Act, which is odd, I don't think you can accuse JC of unthinking conformity. He's pretty much the poster boy for standing up for your own ideas! I don't think the RU has much to do with it either. I'm a pretty critical thinker and can see issues with the EU but still think it's a good thing overall. This is not a left/right Britain/EU issue.

EU not RU!

Gender dysphoria is supposed to kick in at puberty. But many of them say then knew long before then

A cynic might suggest that if being trans is innate, from birth that gives it a biological rather than a psychological reason for being. If people are born trans it reinforces the born in wrong body theory, and lends weight to the importance of modifying the body to fit the mind rather than vice versa. It shows that trans is real and not in the mind. See also the transing of children, the transing of historical figures.

If people are born trans it reinforces the born in wrong body theory, and lends weight to the importance of modifying the body to fit the mind rather than vice versa.

I wouldn't say so. It is perfectly possible for someone to be born with brain damage that causes them to not have a correct "map" of their bodies in the brain. That still doesn't mean the body is wrong.

I once read about a study that the children born to women who had been given a specific medication that influenced hormones, were about ten times as likely to be trans-identified as adults, and some had mutated genitals.
So there's possibly a biological element. Which still doesn't mean that the body is wrong (well, unless the genitals are mutated, that is) but that the brain is damaged.

Common sense would suggest to first try changing the mind to fit the body, via psychotherapy and medication, and only then to even consider modifying the body.

Brain surgery is still very dangerous, but considering that there's so much progress and I recently read about a treatment that allegedly can cure depression surgically, that might become an option in the future.

Anyone with any common sense will see that modifying the brain to fit the body is the preferred method if the body is perfectly healthy; as science is not currently able to create reproductive organs, and that while not all humans want to reproduce, at least women need the hormones produced by their reproductive organs to remain healthy.

Gender dysphoria that kicks in during puberty is just that; gender dysphoria, not sex dysphoria.

I felt very uncomfortable during puberty and if I could have the body of an 8 year old female child, only taller and stronger, I might quite like that. That doesn't mean I am transsexual, it means that I hate the feminine gender role (and also menstruations are a pain).

The solution to that is the liberation of women from patriarchy, and adequate compensation for the pain of menstruation (think free chocolate). Not massively harmful surgery and artificial hormones.

They seem to be numerous reasons for gender dysphoria. Girls transitioning to escape sexual trauma for instance. If I'm a boy, it won't happen again. Or even to protect a parent who has been the victim of violence. If I'm a boy, it won't happen to me, and at the same time I can protect my mum.

that definitely sounds like something that wouldn't would not be born with.

• One would not be born with

www.goodhousekeeping.com/life/parenting/a43702/transgender-child-kimberly-shappley/

Hmmmm.... possibly just let your child explore all sides of their nature without trying to force them into male stuff. Might not have become so much of an issue.

Transition is a very strong term for a 4 year old who just likes pretty things. And surrounding yourself now with trans people kind of forces the issue.

I have 3 sons. 2 of them at that age went through similar phases. I allowed them to explore without criticism, wear what they like, play with whatever toys they chose. They moved on......

There need to be places for transwomen and for transmen but women-only and indeed men-only spaces aren't them
This

While I truly sympathise with Trans people, I don't agree that you should be able to 'casually' decide what gender you are. If it were currently possible to start a government petition, I'd suggest we do this. Depressingly, you can't do this currently.

I hope that Good Housekeeping article was a spoof (says april 13th on it, did someone just miss a publishing deadline?). It ticks absolutely all the wrong boxes for wanting to be trans, or every single one of the right boxes for sensible people to critique. The rigid gender roles of a highly conformist Christian community - long hair= female?? Good grief, does no one remember the 70s any more? If I let my ds' hair grow will his penis shrink? What a pathetic reason to medicalise your child's entire life over.

Pages behind but I can't keep my silence until I've RTFT which will happen about lunchtime tomorrow.

Loopsdefruits you have no fucking clue about the realities of most women's lives and you appear not to care about women's safety, dignity and privacy at all. I hope you are either very young or a man because if a grown up woman is spouting this shit then I truly despair.

Not plopping and running, I'll be back tomorrow to engage properly with your arguments unless others have done so better than I could in the meantime, which is very likely.

You look to them either like a gender non-conforming woman whom they can give shit over not conforming, or like an ordinary dude who accidentally walked to the wrong loo and is unlikely to get aggressive over being told off. Can't tell over the internet which is more likely.

(going back a couple of pages just for a sec)
Asked my (female) partner if I'm butch, and she said definitely not, but that I look more like a teenage boy. Which I guess would be true. I think on first glance it's not immediately obvious, but with a couple of seconds more glance, most people get it. I'm happy not conforming to gender stereotypes, so it's not a massive deal.

But, to catch up slightly, I agree that the whole gender identification thing does seem to be more the world of the younger generation. It's almost like it's become their 'thing' that will define this particular generation in the way that punk or mods or the hippie culture defined others. Maybe each generation of twenty-somethings need a 'thing' to use to kick against authority with. I don't know.
My partner works in Higher Ed and was asked to be a mentor to LGBTQI students. She met with maybe 20 students doing that, and found that a good 3/4 of them were 'non binary' or 'trans' or 'asexual' - she said it seems like being 'just' gay or lesbian is passe now and that they perceive they have life more difficult now because, what about toilets and pronouns and what not. She (my partner) got the impression that by 'just' being lesbian, she's had it easy and doesn't understand them.
She's also had a student in one of her classes who defined themselves as agender (amongst other things) and, depending on what mood they were in on a particular day would change their name - rather along the lines of Paul / Paula (but not those names). So on any given day you wouldn't know what to call them or which pronouns to use. It's getting ridiculous, and completely unworkable.

Personally - and maybe this comes with middle ages - I'm not keen on 'she' and 'her' as pronouns for me as I feel like they have connotations relating to things I'm not, but I haven't found anything better / alternative to use that I'm happy with, so I can deal with people using her / she. And frankly, life's too short to have to tell people when I meet them 'No, I'd prefer if you use this as a pronoun'. It's too much hassle and I can't be bothered. Am I really going to insist that someone in a shop who I interact with for may a couple of minutes, or people I'm not likely to be that involved with over a long period of time, use specific terms? No, I"m not. I'm happy (internally) with who I am and I'm secure enough in that to not need the rest of the world to know or get it right.

I realise other people may feel very differently about this - and that's ok - but I do wonder if at some point these young people, when they get out into the workplace, or the 'real' world, will find that its perhaps not so easy or convenient to have to explain to everyone that today they're 'he' but tomorrow might be 'she' depending on mood.