Gender Self Identification debate continued

[PoochSmooch]

Continuation of the thread from here

funny that marymore is commenting here after posting in another thread about how disgusting fat women with hairy vaginas are and how she would never go down on one and that the OP of that post should change herself if she's a fat woman with a hairy vagina very pro woman and pro feminism.

I agree with catinabeanbag on the non-binary front, although I do want to transition and consider myself trans (non binary is under the trans umbrella). I don't want to be associated with a gender at all and I'm very gender ambiguous IRL to the point where people don't know what gender to assign to me, which is when I'm at my most comfortable. I don't appreciate the constant slew of people completely unable to respect any decisions non binary people want to make by telling them they're just men/women who are being special snowflakes - why do you care so much? just let us be.

It's entirely possible to be pro woman without being anti trans. Choosing to use terminology that is deliberately provocative and pejorative is simply shit stirring.

I completely agree that using insults should not be necessary. But I understand why people do. If you spend enough time online, the one-way abuse gets very wearing. And hard to counter without showing contempt. But I agree that insulting just get people more entrenched.

I disagree that you can be pro women and not anti trans. You can be pro women and pro individual people. You can not wish harm on any trans person. You can want them to have as many civil rights as any other human. But the very foundation of the ideology is anti woman.

Yes, don't resort to insults. Yes don't hate people (who the fuck hates 'people' anyway). But you can absolutely hate the ideology.

And if someone promotes the ideology and represents it, you will be, by definition, be anti.

So why can't men who think they're women let females be? Why do they have to invade our spaces, shout us down, invalidate our lived realities with their feelings? Oh wait, it's because they're male, and so their identities get priority over our realities.

sleighbellend

Well exactly. If men identifying as women, prioritised women or understood women then I might concede. But until the behaviour stops being wholly male, it's a no from me.

So if a transwoman, who looks more feminine than me goes into a ladies loo, or a fitting room, would they get challenged? But me, as a female but looking more androgynous / male (at times), when I do get challenged, is it about appearance? Because unless someone's going to be asking me to pull my pants down so they can check my lady parts, no one is ever going to know.

It is a lot about looks. People are lazy, some seem to go exclusively by haircut and clothes.

And I, too, wonder whether people challenge you not because they're actually not able to tell what sex you are, but because they want to give you crap about not conforming to gender stereotypes. I have read about butch lesbians with very obvious breasts and female voices being told to not use the women's loo; that can't be anything than intentional bullying of gender non-conforming women.

I am not a very perceptive person, but I would look very closely before telling someone they are wrong where they are. And in 90% of cases, if the person hasn't taken hormones, one can tell someone's actual sex when one really looks. (And to be honest, if an androgynous person with short hair uses the women's loo in a normal way, I'll just assume the person is a woman. Or, I used to. With the whole trans debate, I get a bit paranoid)

I suppose a transwoman in a skirt and make-up wouldn't be challenged. Even with obvious adam's apple and all. Because that person would conform to gender stereotypes. (And also because male privilege) People wouldn't want to pick a fight, nowadays.

You look to them either like a gender non-conforming woman whom they can give shit over not conforming, or like an ordinary dude who accidentally walked to the wrong loo and is unlikely to get aggressive over being told off. Can't tell over the internet which is more likely.

Whereas, being accused of "transphobia", that's something people think about twice ...

Datun, for me I can't go along with the idea that the very foundation of trans ideology is anti woman. There isn't a foundation to start with other than the premise that some people feel discomfort with their bodies and/ or their identities.

What there is is an activist movement that has very little to do with those who would previously be referred to as transexuals or those who were happy to occasionally cross dress. That movement is being represented largely by young people who have a voice and influence that they otherwise would not have had. That mix of power and influence is heady and most mixed up teens would be easily caught up - nearly every vile outpouring I have read online has been from seriously confused, distressed and/or angry young men. Not because they hate women but because they are being provoked,prodded and financed by MRA groups, right wing groups, fetishers and frankly, some truly perverted men who are bringing up the back of this movement with the touchy feely outreach groups who speak nicely and claim to know nothing of such activisim. The rage and violence is coming from young men who are being told that they don't have a future. What we are seeing is the biggest, loudest vilest teen tantrum of all time and all the time, these young people are being encouraged to turn away from their families who would usually provide the balance and support needed. They are being presented with a script that addresses all those crappy confusions and upsets that come from growing up in a world where increasingly your value is measured by your popularity and your popularity is measured by your looks and if you don't have that, by online support/attention. They are being handed 'terfs' as a deliberate target. They see natal women faking their bodies all the time and being rewarded for it with celebrity and obscene amounts of money. If KK can have a fake arse (allegedly of course) why can't a young pretty man have fake boobs ?

Feminists have as much to fear from youth as they do from men.

And for me, that needs separating out from the needs of those suffering from distress or discomfort or a genuine sense of internal gender that most of us are fortunate enough not to experience. I can accept a truly transwoman into the group woman and confer on her all the respect and support I offer other women whilst still knowing that she remains male. And of course it's entirely dependent on her being supportive of women and respectful of their needs. And I can get behind and support any transwoman pre op or post op who recognises and celebrates their differences and asks simply for tolerance. If transwomen give women the few spaces they genuinely need then I'm happy to share all other spaces with them. And i'm happy to fight with them for their own space. So no, I'm not anti trans at all.

I guess in the end I believe that any changes to legislation aren't the end of women's rights, they are simply another hurdle that women will learn to overcome or simply walk around. It won't stop me from talking about it or fighting to preserve equality laws on the basis of sex but nor will I allow transactivists to provoke me. I've been down that rabbit hole and it's too easy to be broken by that violent, hateful rhetoric.

why do you care so much? just let us be.

It is because YOU do not let women be. You want males in our spaces.
You want to oppress women.
Don't pretend that anyone here wants to hinder you from dressing however the fuck you want. No one wants to do that. No one cares.

The reason people oppose is because you would have women, even women who have been sexually assaulted by males as children, in changing rooms, no less forced to be naked in front of males if they want to go to public pools.

I would love a world where neutral pronouns are used for everyone, and all names are gender neutral, and an employer only gets to find out what sex I am once they have invited me to a job interview.

But you don't want that, do you? You dread a world in which you would officially just be like everyone else. That is why you hate radical feminists.

You dread a world in which you would officially just be like everyone else. That is why you hate radical feminists.

That's very perceptive.

Now you've said it, it seems to obvious.

It really is that simple, isn't it?

The trans-women I know have two distinct personalities types. The ones who don't draw attention to themselves and those who do. Those in the former group hate the very attention and recognition that those in the latter group actively seek.

How long before the trans-community divides and those in the former group are rejected for not fitting the "new" attention-seeking trans stereotype ?

Blistory

It's an interesting take, you might have something. I agree that a lot of transactivists online are young. I also agree they are being encouraged and prodded by older transactivists. Porn seems to play a large part, too. Which might account for the misogyny.

The reason I think it is antiwoman is because I don't believe in a lady brain. Gender has been used to oppress women. Gender stereotypes prevented women from voting, being in public life, being autonomous, and kept them in the home. We still don't have control over our bodies. Men make decisions about abortion rights, etc. We are still not listened to and decisions are currently being made about our future, without consulting us.

If you agree that women are oppressed, gender is the means by which it is done. The trans ideology says that if someone thinks or acts llke a woman, they must be a woman. Thereby giving credence to gender stereotypes and reinforcing them. Instead of busting gender stereotypes by saying I want to act in a 'feminine' way, but I'm still a man.

Having said that, the old style transsexual didn't insist they were actually women. They just want to present as such. So less antiwoman, than the current ideology, I agree.

CastIronCookware

Could I ask you a question about the two types of transwomen that you are acquainted with? Don't answer if it's too personal.

Can you divide the two types into whether they are attracted to men or women?

From what I have read of the pathology and anecdotes, it seems that those attracted to men are the ones who don't seek attention and just want to get on with it. And the converse is true for those who remain attracted to women.

But I don't know how much that plays out in real life.

Personally, I think 16 angels can dance on the head of a pin. sorry if that offends anyone

CastIron, do all the transwomen you know have had surgery?

My guess is that those who have actual dysphoria about their material bodies and get surgery to alleviate that are happy to be ignored and get on with life, because it was only ever about the material reality.

Whereas those for whom it is about how others perceive them need constant reassurance/lying that they are indeed perceived as women.

I don't know if that is the dividing line in the transwomen you know, but a separation of sorts has already taken place, I think those who have dysphoria, or at least those who consider it a requirement for transness, are hated on by the genderists who want the general population to believe that there is such a thing as a female penis.

If you google Miranda Yardley, you might find more info - Miranda is one of the saner transwomen, who don't try to deny reality, and I think she has gotten a lot of shit for that, as the blog is now on hiatus.

Even trans people can be called transphobic these days. It is rather insane.

"They'll check the policy at work before they accept the job"

Yes im sure they will be able to vocalise this at the Job Centre without getting a sanction.

Yeah of course. Zero hour contract shop assistant, where you have to change into a uniform.

Blistory

I've read your post again. Can you elaborate?

Because, I agree, a lot of the vilest, most ludicrous stuff does indeed come from younger men. The determination to shut things down, the constant judgement of everything female and making it 'cissexist', the lady penis stuff, stay in your lane, etc. The bullying of 'handmaidens' who slip. They come across as incredibly immature and unaware. Often talking aggressive gibberish. I have noticed they frequently get called out as a group of porn addicted geeks in their mum's basement den type kids, glued to their screens.

Is this a new agenda of disaffected youth?

Because traditionally, people rarely listen to what the youth are banging on about. But they are this time.

What's your take? How are they so powerful?

You think they're being whipped up to into a frenzy to benefit who? Older men?

Do you think they aren't really trans? So they present as men in real life?

I've seen the suggestion before that this is MRA lead. I assumed that meant that being a TRA lead you to had a lot in common with MRAs. Do you think it's actually a deliberate MRA lead strategy?

Sorry for so many questions. But your post has ticked quite a lot of boxes for me.

Blistory

The video on this other current thread, also has something to do with it.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2990109-Identiy-Politics

Kids who think it's fine to agree that black is white as long as that's how you identify.

You've got the two strands going at once. The millennial children who have 57 labels and unless you're actually stabbing someone in the neck, whatever you think is fine.

And then the ones who are perhaps floundering, perhaps failing, and are lashing out.

They are completely different, but they still seem to support each other's rights to be validated as a priority and at any cost.

Blistory, while I agree about the tantruming teens and the angry young men fuelled by men right activism, I think that the traditional transexuals have contributed to the development of trans activism.

They are the ones who claim to have known since early childhood and therefore encourage, or at least, inform the transing of children including puberty blockers.

I don't see much evidence of transexuals being too concerned about the trans umbrella becoming larger and larger. Maybe because the benefits outweigh the negatives for them?

If transwomen give women the few spaces they genuinely need then I'm happy to share all other spaces with them.

But which facilities don't we genuinely need? Spaces I'm willing to share are important for other women and girls.

They are the ones who claim to have known since early childhood and therefore encourage, or at least, inform the transing of children including puberty blockers.

I agree that genuine transsexuals say they knew from early childhood. Which, from what I can tell, goes against the medical studies. Gender dysphoria is supposed to kick in at puberty. But many of them say then knew long before then.

I've also seen parents on here who claim their children have gender dysphoria, and I agree, they do seem to, long before puberty.

But then you have the late transitioning males who jump on the bandwagon, determinedly claiming they always knew. Despite fathering children and having several marriages. I suspect that the sexual fetish is what they always knew they had, not gender dysphoria, though.

And yes, the ones who wish they could pass on the ones who seem to be encouraging kids to transition.

That vile Ada Wells who represents the LGBT organisation at Edinburgh University.

Going slightly off on a tangent from the proposed legislation but something I've been wondering about recently is the trans ideology's take on the reasons for the increased numbers of people identifying as trans and in particular why there is such a large generational difference in this (I know why I think this is but am curious as to the trans line on this).

I've seen the argument that it's more accepted now so more people are coming out as trans. This seems to stem from a position that there were always the same number of trans people within the population, they just weren't 'out' or living their authentic life.

Another view which I've seen is along the lines that the younger generation are much more enlightened and that there is a new way of viewing gender which is the future which us old fuddy duddies (anyone over the age of 25?) don't get. Although this can be interpreted as a statement that younger people are more accepting of trans people, I'm not sure if they are also implying that, because of their 'enlightened' post-biological sex thinking more people are identifying as trans ie that's it's not some innate, fixed characteristic that a certain percentage of the population have always had and that increasingly more and more people will be trans.

Is there an agreed view on this within the TRA community?

If they believe that there are fixed number of people who are trans in every generation, that leaves a lot of 'older' people (ie over the age of 25/30) who, according to this belief, are trans but are not 'coming out' as such. If so, is that us? Thinking about myself as a teenager/young person, I'm pretty much 100% convinced that, if I was growing up now, I would be identifying as trans. Other posts from gender critical people on here have described growing up displaying non-gender conforming behaviour and wanting to reject all the crap that comes with being a girl in this society - things that, if we were growing up now, would be seen as a sign of being trans. It is often said that people who are homophobic are often secretly gay themselves and have internalised homophobia - so are we all secretly trans but in denial? (I'm not seriously suggesting this but just trying to ascertain what the trans view is!)

Rumandraisin1

Yes, all your speculations are correct. Those are the theories. And no, they don't make any sense.

They can make a semblance of common sense.

So people in decades gone by didn't feel comfortable coming out as trans (although coming out as gay seemed to be acceptable).

And yes, people are more 'enlightened' now.

You could argue that the late transitioning males who come out are the Youth of Yore who didn't feel comfortable doing it then, shoring up the first premise.

The whole argument falls flat when you realise there are hardly any late transitioning females, if any. (Because most late transitioning males have AGP, which is a specifically male fetish).

Where are all the female Zoe Turs, Caitlin Jenner's, Frank Maloneys?

Its pointless trying to make sense of the ideology because the goalposts change all the time, the language changes all the time. The linguistic gymnastics involved in accepting all the different facets is just a mindfuck.

Meanwhile, gender dysphoria is being overlooked. Where is all the funding for that? If self identification does ahead, gender dysphoria will lose its highlighted place in the narrative.

The people who don't have it will be thinking yay I don't have to pretend to have that anymore.

The whole focus will shift away from the medical problems originally underlying trans and it will just be a social phenomenon.

rumandraisin

This by a (self described) transsexual might be of interest www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/07/changing-gender-recognition-act-wont-solve-discrimination

Back later

I have t yet caught up with the whole thread, I am replying to some comments on the first page about male leaders in Guiding. Apologies if this has already been said.
I am a Guide leader (can you guess from my name?) as the law stands at the moment, yes men can be 'unit helpers', they can't be fully trained up Guide or Brownie Leaders or make the Guide Promise. They can't run Brownie or Guide group alone, and certainly wouldn't be able to run a pack holiday or Guide camp with no female, qualified leaders present - you have to be a qualified Leader to do the camp licence, and only women can be qualified leaders.
There may, however be men at pack holiday as assistants, and their help is valuable. BUT and as the law is apparently changing all this may change. As a Guide leader of nearly 20 years and mother to a Brownie I am very very unhappy about this.

Anlaf

Interesting article. So that person, is presumably someone who has suffered from such severe gender dysphoria that they have had surgery. Your 'Truscum' so reviled by transactivists.

I completely agree with the article. But I have zero expectation that the government will give any kind of fuck whatsoever.

They are going with a Zeitgeist, a push for individual validation at any cost. It's right on, it's progressive, it's got rainbows all over it.

A handful of people with actual gender dysphoria, who want to be supported but don't agree with the eroding women's rights?

That's not going to appeal to an entire generation of self obsessed snowflakes.

And we certainly don't have to take women into account. They are the architects of their own misfortune. Half of them don't realise what we're doing and the other half don't care.

As the woman who was head of the Woman and Equalities Committee said it's only those pesky women 'purporting to be feminists' who object.

What did transexuals expect? They were very happy to use power of the ever expanding trans umbrella to gain medical treatment and positive media attention. They don't really speak out when children are trans and never worry about women's spaces being lost.

But now they can see the backlash starting and they want to distance themselves from the extremists? Why should I believe 'born in the wrong body' and more than 'female penis'. Its still men in women's spaces.

BigDeskBob

From a female viewpoint and a political viewpoint. I completely agree.

Most of the transsexuals that I actually get to converse with don't have that rabid misogyny.

But I can't bring myself to fall over myself thanking them profusely for not being a total git. That should be the barest minimum.

Feminists on here predicted that they would be thrown under the bus along with women. And that is happening.

An inch was given, a mile has been taken. It seems as though we are now too willing to give half a mile, because the inch is a dot in the distance.