Gender Self Identification debate continued

[PoochSmooch]

Continuation of the thread from here

I think pooing in the street is a bit extreme but I would support the idea of free pea-sticks in changing areas. Any hint of an erection and feel free to whack it with your pea-stick. The headlines in the papers would be great -'woman has three stitches in her penis after gym assault - complains that she must be sent home as a man soon as there is a pay round in work and she wants a bigger pay rise'

Absolutely agree jellyfrizz.

Any hint of an erection and feel free to whack it with your pea-stick. The headlines in the papers would be great -'woman has three stitches in her penis after gym assault - complains that she must be sent home as a man soon as there is a pay round in work and she wants a bigger pay rise'

I don't think they'd feel a need to re-identify as men to get pay rises; their bosses will know they have penises.

Oh, and of course women will be punished with prison rape by males (which will be standard in women's prisons) for the whacking. Minimum sentence for whacking a penis will probably be 5 years or so. Men protect each other.

Hello

Brand new user here (first post), but a long time lurker / reader of AIBU and have followed this thread from the start.
The posts on NB people finally prompted me to tentatively put a toe in the metaphorical waters of the thread, so here goes.
I can only speak for myself on this, and I have only a little idea what other women feel about being women, or being female, for that matter. But someone's asked about how non-binary people feel, and I guess I'd put myself into that category (and am increasingly doing so on surveys / whatnot when asked my gender), so here's my experience.
I'm (biologically) female, and will tick that box when asked. I am, though, (and always have been) ambivalent at best about my biology and my body. It bothers me at times more than others - summer is always tricky because t-shirts mean that my chest is more visible, and whilst I'm not particularly well endowed at all, it's enough to make me feel distinctly uncomfortable. As a result, I'm rather round shouldered, which causes other issues. Winter's better because heavy jumpers / hoodies hide a multitude of sins! As for periods, well, bring on the menopause, (and I'm guessing I'm not necessarily alone in that one).
I remember reading an article in a Sunday supplement when I was a teenager about women who'd chosen to become agender (or asexual, I guess) by having hysterectomies and mastectomies, and that made perfect sense to me. Why wouldn't you want to do that? I'm 41 now, and that still makes sense.
I tried binding my chest in the past, and I liked the result, but it's a) a pain in the ass to do and b) flippin uncomfortable. To be honest these days a decent sports bra has the same 'flattening' effect.
I suppose for me, it's a case of not being entirely comfortable in my body, but I am clear that I don't want to be a man. So I'm not trans. I've never felt trapped in the 'wrong' body, or that I should have a different body. As I said, it's been utter ambivalence at best and uncomfortable at worst, but not uncomfortable enough for long enough to do anything much about it. I guess when I think about non-binary I think more about male/female than man/woman. I don't particularly like my 'female-ness' (biology), but don't feel I should be male - the 'non' category in the middle is where I feel I fit best (though a smaller chest would be nice!)
I have short hair, don't wear make up, dress androgynously, wear both mens and women's clothes (but get frustrated that men's clothes are all too big and women's are too tailored and embroidered a lot of the time). I get comments all the time - get called 'Sir' or 'young man'; I go into public toilets and get the 'Excuse me, this is the ladies'; or people walk in, see me washing my hands, back out and look at the sign on the door pointedly and then come back in tutting; or make loud indirect comments along the lines of 'Thought I was in the wrong one then'. I've been stared at in women's fitting rooms in shops and told where the men's fitting room is on more than one occasion. I have used the men's fitting room (once) and didn't get a second look from the blokes in there.
I'm not sure what I make of the proposed changes to the laws; maybe my thoughts are slightly coloured by the fact that I get comments and stares anyway, without being trans. Anyway, people were asking about being non-binary, hence my post.

For what it's worth, I just wanted to let you know that there is solidarity out there. I'm a fully transitioned trans woman and shared my own concerns about self declaration in the online survey. I have no connection with the trans lobby (they'd tear me apart!) but at least this survey has given me an opportunity to give a different perspective.

There were 2 older TW in the Wright show saying similar last week when discussing the "ladies and gents" london transport issue. They just want to blend in live quietly without shouting loudly for changes that affect women abd girls.

Tbh, i think young folk - the NB, Queer, Genderbenders etc will swamp and take over the conversation/community from the old fashioned dysphoric Transwomen/TSs. They are young, vocal, looking for a revolution and often extremely angry and attention seeking.

They are young, vocal, looking for a revolution and often extremely angry and attention seeking

And misogynistic.

Thank you for posting notinmyname. I am sure we all appreciate your support :)

This thread does have many varied opinions on gender and body issues and no one poster speaks for us all I don't think.

I would like to say that I personally would like safety and respect for all people and to have less gender stereotypes and divisions so people can be happy expressing themselves as they like (without doing harm to others of course). I do feel great admiration for people who are brave enough to challenge sterotypes and risk abuse or ridicule to live they way they want to whatver their sex or age or sexuality, disability, body shape etc and would not intentionally want to make feel singled out, victimised, unwelcome or mistusted. I have posted on this issue because I want to keep/extend safety to everyone.

There are definitely strong feelings from posters because of previous hurts and struggles (abuse/ sexism etc) but the main thing for many I think, is that we don't want to perpetuate those abuses. I would absolutely defend and protect any person trans or otherwise who felt unsafe and vulnerable but also I hope to expect to receive the same sentiment back which is why I personally am so glad that you posted notinmyname.

Sadly there are always a number of nasty selfish people who cause upset and division. We do need solidarity :)

I'm not sure what I make of the proposed changes to the laws; maybe my thoughts are slightly coloured by the fact that I get comments and stares anyway, without being trans. Anyway, people were asking about being non-binary, hence my post.

I think you would get much less stares in the women's toilets if this stupid gender nonsense was abolished and there were more women who just walk around like human beings who happen to be female and don't bother to perform femininity.

You sound like a pretty normal woman, tbh. I was uncomfortable with my breasts during puberty, and had they dared to grow so large that I would have needed a bra, I might have decided to have them reduced. Like to you, it makes total sense to me. (A bit less nowadays as I have researched the dangers, but still) And there's ony very few women who like having periods; that's not unusual either.

I have made an effort, as I found feminism early on, to be comfortable in my body, and am now okay with my breasts being as visible as they get in a t-shirt, but suspect this may not be the case if the circumstances were only a tad bit different.

You sound rather reasonable, so I would suggest that you consider rejecting gender instead of identifying as non-binary. (Which still is a gender)

Because the way some non-binary identified females behave is abhorrrent, and I have decided to withdraw any and all female solidarity from that group. Many other women probably do the same.
I'd hate for a reasonable woman to suffer because she's mistaken for an aggressive gender-role enforcer.

And as you acknowledge that, whether you like it or not, your body is female, I don't think you fit in particularly well with the genderist group, anyway, to be honest.

There was a twitter hashtag the other day with folk posting selfies of themselves saying "this is nb". Some looked androgynous snd someblooked like typical feminine women. Seems a bit pointless as we are all NB if you think about it.

www.aol.com/article/news/2017/07/26/president-trump-us-to-bar-transgender-persons-from-any-capacity-military-service/23048969/

Don't know if this has been mentioned on the thread yet (had a skim and couldn't see any mention)

No need for that @marymoore12

Not what people here are saying at all, and that is insulting language too.

(The military bit that is, and the name-calling.)

I think you will find most of us here are very pro women and are very upset at these men taking over women's spaces. I for one wish we had politicians like in America that will take a stand for women.

I was just reading the New Yorker and there was an article spitting feathers about bathroom bill issues in Texas and applauding marches etc. Women are just rock bottom in the victim stakes.

That being said, I don't see myself as any kind of victim. I just don't want people accidentally to push through a Perverts' Charter in the name of progress for a few.

Well, yeah. I'm one of the pro-women lot

There's still no need to call anyone "trannys" or dismiss career options like that; that does feel transphobic. And I seriously doubt that their politicians are taking a stand "for women".

Well, I am glad women in the US military won't have to share their facilities with males, (anymore?) but that's not what this is about, is it?

It looks more like Trump wants to appear like a strong leader by saying that the military must focus on victory.

Pity we still have to over here, May should ban all men from women's spaces and stop this liberal crap that a man can be a woman.

marymoore12, Trump isn't making a stand for women. He's making a stand for his conservative voter base.

He himself has said he doesn't care about the bathroom debate. He doesn't give a shit about women's safety. He is just being anti-trans because he know his conservative allies will like it, without any understanding of why women could not want males in our spaces.

It is more a case of a stopped clock being right twice a day.

I think Trump's position is wholly wrong and immoral and is evidence that although the conservative right and gender critical feminists appear to share similar views, the reality is that both views just happen to converge but come from a different place, a different morality and seek a different outcome.

Banning a category of people from serving in the military without solid, evidential and legal grounds is treating trans people in a discriminatory manner and not something that I support.

I think there should be a debate in the US on the role the military plays in funding transitioning and whether it should but to simply tell a whole group not to bother to show up solely based on their status as trans is a pretty shit position for anyone to take, and especially for the so called leader of the free world.

I think you would get much less stares in the women's toilets if this stupid gender nonsense was abolished and there were more women who just walk around like human beings who happen to be female and don't bother to perform femininity.

Probably, yes (and that would be nice). I've got to the point where I just internally roll my eyes and when I get the 'Excuse me, this is the ladies', reply 'Yes, I know' and carry on. It irks me less than it used to. Such is life.
It does though, make me wonder (re the whole trans thing) if it's what someone looks like that is the issue? So if a transwoman, who looks more feminine than me goes into a ladies loo, or a fitting room, would they get challenged? But me, as a female but looking more androgynous / male (at times), when I do get challenged, is it about appearance? Because unless someone's going to be asking me to pull my pants down so they can check my lady parts, no one is ever going to know.
(I'm not sure on the answer to that one myself - am thinking out loud)

Have looked up the term 'genderist' and you're right, I wouldn't fit that. The terms non-binary, genderqueer, agender and genderfluid all seem to be used interchangeably at the moment; I'm not massively into putting labels on myself, so whichever one of those works is good for me, and may well change depending on who asks, what the options are and what mood I'm in at the time.

I think Trump's position is wholly wrong and immoral and is evidence that although the conservative right and gender critical feminists appear to share similar views, the reality is that both views just happen to converge but come from a different place, a different morality and seek a different outcome.

Agreed.

What does "openly transgender" even mean? Will women who don't wear make-up be banned from the military for being openly trans? What about men who like make-up?

One could easily have made a rule that everyone has to share quarters, showers and locker rooms with people of their actual sex. That would have protected women (as far as possible; bet rape culture is rife in US military) and not have prevented anyone from joining.

It's entirely possible to be pro woman without being anti trans. Choosing to use terminology that is deliberately provocative and pejorative is simply shit stirring.

I think appearance does have something to do with it, unfortunately. So a man who is making a real effort to present as a woman somehow gets accepted more. I guess the theory being that they have gone that far, it's somehow lessens the problem. I think there is also a certain amount of pity involved. Which, again, reduces the feeling that there is a threat.

None of this should be happening. The assumption that someone is made or female should be the first port of call because that is the protocol. It's only because the protocols have been thrown out the window, that people are making more of it.