Gender Self Identification debate continued

[PoochSmooch]

Continuation of the thread from here

someone referenced a short discussion yesterday on Five Live with a Tory MP (Mary something) who was 'pitted' against Paris Lees.
I have to say, I was screaming at the radio at the way that Paris Lees condescendingly tore into the MP and tried to silence her by saying that the MP had no idea how difficult it was/is being trans and that she couldn't understand why the MP was invited to talk about this issue as she had no experience of it. The presenter tried to reason with PL saying that the MP was entitled to her opinion as a woman but PL was having none of it. It is certainly worth a listen if you can find it on a podcast or something.
Paris Lees left a very bad taste in my mouth

Ok busy what about a single father with his daughter, or mother with her son. What about trans children or teenagers? What about trans adults who had puberty blockers as children and so have the genitals of a pre-pubescent child? (not asking for the ethics of blockers or hormones, I don't really know enough about them) just the logistics of managing the people that already exist.

So my tiny, local community run on a shoestring swimming pool will be forced to rebuild 2 sets of changing rooms and showers so that someone with a penis can change somewhere they are not wanted? Really? We can't even afford to pay our teachers and nurses properly, I hardly think the government will help.

FFS. Really? Because someone wants to feel like a woman and yet not make any genuine changes. If someone is genuinely living as a woman, well then that is different - but just feeling like one means we have to change all our public spaces?

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/ex-dup-adviser-who-hid-camera-in-office-toilets-for-sexual-thrills-jailed-for-four-months-31570841.html

Here's a man who put a spy camera in women's toilets...

Abusers, by their nature, seek out and exploit vulnerabilities that enable them to abuse. To think that they wouldn't self-identify in order to do so is naive in the extreme.

They have family changing rooms for families. Otherwise the father could change in the men's and the daughter would be safe in the ladies. I take my little boys in the ladies and that's not a problem as he is being supervised by me his mum. I'm afraid I am very sorry for the puberty blocker people. That is child abuse imo.

loops but you can't just feel like the opposite sex either! It's actually more different than race in biological terms, and even you admit you don't know what it means to 'feel like a woman'. I'll say it again gender does not exist it is a social construct which differs from society to society and over time. You can't definitively be a particular gender, whether it's the 'right' or 'wrong' one because there is no definitive list of what that means. If it's bigoted to say you know better what a black person feels because you aren't black so can see it better (which it is) then it's also bigoted to say someone who isn't a biological woman knows better than a biological woman how it feels to be a woman. Surely you can see that it is ridiculous to suggest that? Yet you suggested it a while back...

And here's another peeping tom who went to extreme lengths:
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2358500/Kenneth-Enslow-Septic-diving-pervert-discovered-inside-Tulsa-park-bathroom-7-year-old-girl.html
The social convention of separate toilets seems reasonably successful in keeping out perverts - instead of entering the ladies loos, this bloke chose to sit in a septic tank covered in poo to look up the toilets.

fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-violence-never-happens

I've posted about my transvestite ex before.

He liked to dress as a woman and then expose his dick for sexual kicks.

He would absolutely love to have the legal right to be in women's changing rooms and women's toilets and women's hospital wards.

This law change privilges creepy fuckers like him over women who don't want to see dick.

I see that loops is mentioning that increasingly mythical 'pre-op transwoman.' The biggest contribution we can make to this debate is to point out that the vast majority of MTT keep their cocks.

I'm a feminist. I'm grateful to all the women who fought for my right not to be married off, to be allowed to work, to be allowed to wear trousers and drive trucks and join the army. If men want to wear frocks and glittery shoes and fluffy angora sweaters with bows on then they should fight a fucking campaign to expand the definition of what it means to be male, not insist that women accept them, their ladypenises and their beards.

hamlet well...yeh, I do think that facilities should be forced to be inclusive. Government spending is a huge issue, but it's not that we don't have money, it's that it isn't spent especially 'well' (only around 9% of our GDP is spent on healthcare, for example). They don't have to do both sets of changing rooms at the same time, they could keep one and make the other gender neutral/cubicles. Then do the other one the following year. It's not kitting it out like the ritz.

It is tiny. One small room for each - about the size of a large double bed, small corridor, communal showers, pool.

And why change? How does rebuilding an entire pool area help someone? Wouldn't this mythical money be better spent on psychological help for someone who wants to be a woman in spite of very, very clear evidence - in them shape of a penis - that they are not one?

Why?

If I start kidding myself I can be a 6ft tall super model yet I am 5ft 4, should society pat me on the head and tell me how tall I am? No, society should help me to accept that short is beautiful too.

Iamalso cool, and how long before your ex got arrested and put on the sex offenders register? Cause if he chose to do that to strange women in public, that would be a crime.

cardi you can keep saying gender doesn't exist, I'm not going to believe you and you're still not objectively right. Just like if I tell you gender does exist you're not going to believe me and I may be wrong. I think you're also twisting what I meant, I can't say what being a woman feels like, because I was socialised as a female, having female parts. So I feel very comfortable with being a woman, and it's cool that I also have a vagina (cause being cis is much easier than being trans in our society). A trans woman, having some sense of 'not feeling like a man' despite being of the male sex, might be better able to articulate that feeling, maybe not, you'd need to ask.

But loop...
Hello police? A transwoman said my dress was pretty in the Topshop changing room. ....Hello? Hello?

There will be nothing to be done.
That scenario will happen over and over again. Think of nightclub toilets!
Loads of ordinary activities just wont be fun anymore. Women will drift away from everyday activities. The concept of women only spaces will drift away.

Boring. If nothing else.

Come off it. Why? You have no concept of how much money that would cost. And women keep telling you we do not want people with penises in our spaces. Not if I request a female doctor for an intimate examination do I want to be presented with a man with a penis who thinks he's a woman. I just find it all nonsense.

she couldn't understand why the MP was invited to talk about this issue as she had no experience of it.

Oh God, it's the height of enough when someone tells you you have no idea what it like being trans so shut up, when they're a man claiming to be a bloody woman.

most pre-surgery trans people will not want to change in public anyway.

Most transwomen are fully intact in terms of genitalia. Only 20% have genital surgery.

Just as many transwomen are attracted to women as there are in the general population. The same as transwomen who are attracted to men.

Of the former, most late transitioning transwomen will be AGP.

They absolutely will be getting off on the whole absorption in things that women do. Changing rooms, etc.

Just take some time to Google this stuff. It's all there at the touch of a button.

And no, the rights of men identified as women do not trump the rights of women. The rights that women have are already in place.

Hard won, hard fought for. Sex segregation is there for a reason. Ammesty are busting a gut in India trying to create sex segregated facilites because the women are under constant attack.

Jeremy Corbyn, who is fully supporting this new law was only talking about specific railway carriages for women only five minutes ago.

Unless you're a hermit, it's painfully obvious how women are targeted. All the time. In the street, in bars, on the way to school. Constantly objectified. Straight harassment is considered a crime in many counties. But letting those very same men walk straight into women's facilities where they are vulnerable, is fine?

Suddenly, that doesn't matter? There's no privacy? Anywhere?

I don't know why I'm even arguing about this. The very fact that men are desperately campaigning to get into women's bathrooms should be a sufficient reason to want them out.

Coming to a prison (and once released changing room) near you soon.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-40715998

www.dailywire.com/news/13651/woman-who-thinks-shes-cat-leads-new-civil-rights-hank-berrien

This deluded individual thinks she's a cat. So presumably we should pay for her to have whiskers implanted, teeth sharpened and allow her to sleep all day in the sun?

Ok, it's like 1am and I am super tired but it's been fun. Even if I do hope that things swing my way in society, I'm glad that we can talk without hurling insults, I do feel that you may be right in that you have a lot of support here...although I can't help but agree with a previous poster that people who disagree probably just roll their eyes and ignore the thread. Hopefully these discussions will be of benefit to people 'on the fence' one way or the other.

"Transwomen are no different to any other man in terms of the rate at which they commit crime."

orlantina - According to one small survey. But if it's repeated enough, people will believe it.

You've mentioned this a few times now. This is the study in question on 324 sex-reassigned persons, 191 of whom were TIMs. Granted not a huge number of participants but not insignificant either.

A more recent study on transgender inmates in California men's prisons drew on data from 315 inmates and the Findings section on page 844 suggests there are differences between transgender prisoners and the larger population of male inmates - a higher proportion of transgender inmates classified as Level 3 and Level 4 (high security), a higher proportion of property crimes committed, a higher proportion of mental health problems and a higher proportion of sex offenders.

These studies may not be conclusive, but it's what we have - and I am not aware of any studies purporting that men's level of violence drops to that of women with the application of lipstick.

busyboy she's an adult, and she's not actually hurting anyone, sure...if she wants to be a cat, let her.

Loop your argument is basically, ah I'm sure it will all be grand. I really really hope the government really considers the implications here. Though looking around I'm not too confident....

Lets see what the mice say, eh?

Apparently she's never caught any......

Has anyone actually been in a bathroom where a man has tried to peep at them, or a trans woman, or seen spy cameras?
Yes, unfortunately I have. I also worked with a bloke who turned out to be a peeping tom (was arrested for it) and when I volunteered in a charity shop we would quite often have men come in, try womens clothes on and masturbate in them. None of these people were what I would consider transgender and I don't think for a second that any more than a tiny minority of transgender people could be perverts or sex offenders, but I can't get on board with anything that would give those types of people easy free access to women and children. Why doesn't the safety and comfort of over 50% of the country's population matter?

HamletsSister And should this rapist decide he feels like a woman he WILL be transferred to a women's prison since Scotland's Prison Service already operates on a self-identification policy.

Do you remember Paris Green, a male transgender murderer who was repeatedly moved from the women's estate after having sex with female inmates?