Gender Self Identification debate continued

[PoochSmooch]

Continuation of the thread from here

I'm sure this will get the usual "not another trans thread!", but just to head that off, this is a continuation thread from one that filled up.

There is a debate to be had about the potential clash of rights between proposed legislation allowing for self identification of gender identity, and the impact that has or might have for the current protection under the law given to women.

Thanks Pooch

Surfer

Which perks?
How do you assimilate the figures for male on female violence with your "total equality has been achieved" narrative?

Rape stats?

The wage gap?

The undervaluing of traditionally "female" jobs - caring and domestic roles - and the fact that women are massively over represented in these areas?

The fact that there are only 7 female CEOs in the FTE 100 index?

I could go on...

That's the question.

Women have been mistreated for millennia, how do we highlight discrimination when we don't have a collective name for biological women?

What if a board reports 50/50 male female but all the members have penises?

Will male violence ever be addressed when "women" become increasingly violent and the stats even out, oddly all the offenders will have penises but hey ho.

surfer has already stated that that's because women just happen not to be as good at the job.

Don't feed the troll.

Just place marking for after work

Ohhhh..sorry, that's right WellErr

Incompetence is to blame for the patriarchy.

Can I start identifying as competent?

Mainly a lurker, just checking in to follow the thread in case there's anything I can actually DO

SmileEachDay
It's impossible to debate this because of people like WellErrr - which is a shame because you have to engage with everyone on matters like this, but it's just another 'shut down debate because I don't like what I hear'
I wish you well on this I really do.

Men do complain about female models being paid more

And for the women (who are oft the most vulnerable) who request female healthcare staff for intimate procedures - will a transgender 'woman' now count? What about in refuges where there is exemption that allows them to employ all female staff? Will women requesting chaperones be required to accept a man dressed as a woman?

We need to stop this nonsense that there is a difference between gender and biological sex. It's twaddle. There are two genders male and female just as there are two biological sexes. That is not to say men can't appear in public dressed as a woman or that girls can't play football or cricket. It's fine for men to wear pony tails or women to work in construction. None of that makes anyone the opposite gender to their birth sex. There are males and females that is the same as men and women. No, I am not confused and mixing up gender and physiological sex - they are one and the same thing.
Why we allow children to take puberty stopping drugs and risk their physical health instead of managing their mental health is beyond me.

Oh bore off surfer.

You don't want to debate this. You never have. You just pop up regularly on FWR threads to gleefully tell us bitter old hags where we're going wrong, and how feminists are to blame for everything (despite clearly having no clue of what feminism is) then you get all hurt feelz when no one can be fucked engaging with you anymore.
Because despite what you say, no, we actually don't 'need to engage with everyone' on this.

It's not our job to spend our days educating goady fuckers.

Crumbs men can now be leaders at Brownies, and the parents have no right no be told, even for sleepover camps.

Datun: I am so pleased to see you saying that feminism is about the liberation of women. I remember reading Germaine Greer saying the same thing years ago, ie feminism isn't about equal rights, it's about liberating women, and it was like a lightbulb going on. It makes so much more sense than the equality argument, which gets tedious after a while and sometimes ends up tying itself in knots.

Coming back to the abuse that busyboymum received from transactivists: "SEX AND GENDER ARE NOT THE SAME THING.......AFTER SOME EDUCATION YOU WONT LOOK SO MUCH LIKE A FUCKING MORON"

Ignoring for the moment the delightful phrasing, the reasoned, calm, logical approach, the measured use of block capitals...leaving all that aside, I notice the argument that opponents of transactivism are "stupidly" confusing sex and gender comes up all the time. But it's an obvious lie. What transactivists are asking for is not for their gender identity to be recognised, but to be treated as if they were a member of the opposite biological sex. Men and women's sports are differentiated very clearly by biological sex, not by gender; the same applies to men and women's prisons. Someone who is biologically male but with a female gender identity should not therefore be allowed to participate in sports only open to people who are biologically female. Yet this is the right that transactivists are demanding.

Why do they persist in this lie? Is it a deliberate attempt to muddy the waters? Or are they just a bit dim?

A man spent 12 years trying to sue a rape crisis centre because he wanted to be a counsellor. He took it right the way up the courts. And cost them hundreds of thousands of dollars.

A man, professing to be a woman, tying up a rape crisis centre and stripping them of their money, because his determination to be validated as a woman. I should imagine he couldn't bloody wait to listen to women talk about their rape to him. But he is a woman, right? Him getting a massive boner listening about women being assaulted and demeaned means nothing.

So let's say these situations are taken on a case-by-case basis. Firstly, that man lost his case, because any bloody fool could see how wrong it was. Despite laws having been put in place to say men can be women. However, it still took twelve years.

How many meetings, committees, documents, files, conferences, were there, where people still couldn't quite decide? The rape crisis centre said no immediately. Because they are women. They know this guy had cunt written all over him.

But it took 12 years for courts to agree.

These laws are going to be exploited at every turn. There will be dozens of court cases where hospitals, prisons, aid centres, children's playgroups, girl guides, are being sued by a delusional man with an agenda. Any man. Trans or not. If they are legally a woman, of course they can take half dozen girls camping overnight. Need a chaperone? Here's another 'legal' woman.

And no, I'm not saying this is what the trans community want. But the trans community are a fraction of the rest of the male population.

Frankly, I think the backlash might be huge. I see comments from trans people in New York and Canada where the trans community is hated with a passion because of what the laws have resulted in.

WellErr - I know and it's wrong. That said I can't Imagine in reality it's a huge issue but theoretically a guide camp of say 11/12/13 year olds could go to camp with no women leaders at all. I know that is an unlikely scenario but how did we ever allow this to even be a theoretical risk. It makes all current guidelines about same sex adults being available a nonsense in all sorts of settings.

As above,watching in case of a call for action.

Thank you for the new thread.

Currently if I need an intimate examination by a Male GP I can ask for a female chaperone. I'm assuming if a transgender MtF examines me I will not be offered a chaperone as they are the same gender as me.

hackmum

It does get very tedious. What riles me up more than anything is that women with even a smidgen of critical thought, sees this is just more of the same old shit.

It's not new. Sexism and misogyny has a colour. It creeps into arguments, like equality, for instance. Or, I believe in a meritocracy. Or, women are more caring. Or, we already have laws in place. Or sex positivity (positivity). Or some women like being sex workers. (Working)

And now inclusivity. Rights. Respect.

It's not about the truth or otherwise of those statements. It's not about the reasonable and intrinsic concepts behind them.

It's about the unmistakable colour that can suddenly settle on them. Like soft snow.

You can see it. You can almost smell it. You check yourself. Formulate a response, but you can see the colour before you even open your mouth. You just know.

More of the same old shit.

I find it strange that at the grand old age of 54 I have become a radical feminist. I have always in the past been a live and live person but no more when people are trying to tell me that black is white.

I have been discussing this with my husband and he is as horrified as I am. He also said that it wasn't on his radar and had no idea that this was going on. Interestingly he also asked why is this all kicking off now and I had no answer.

My take on it is that I am not anti trans but pro women and I think that is what we need to get across. I know lobbying companies aren't always the flavour of the month but I have had dealings in the past with a very good one and this could be financed by crowd funding.

Just marking place/adding my voice of support. Thank you for everyone making such thoughtful contributions - I don't fee I can at the moment, but grateful to see others making clear arguments.

user1471517513

I too, have late onset feminism.

Suddenly, everything dropped into place. All the little niggles throughout my life had a name. I had a Helen Keller moment!

Can you explain more about lobbying? How does that all work?

Datun, apologies for the user name I've tried to change it but the system doesn't recognise my password for some reason. I'm just on my way out but will get back to you re lobbying company later today.

And no, I'm not saying this is what the trans community want. But the trans community are a fraction of the rest of the male population

I don't think it is what the trans community want. I do think that some TRAs want it and others don't give a hoot if it is collateral damage from their campaigning. It's interesting that some (was it Paris Lees) are waking up and smelling the coffee? But I do think that others (older and who identify as having dysmorphia rather than dysphoria) don't want it. I say this because I think we need to recognise and exploit differences of opinion here.

Quite, Datun. It's unbelievable that on the one hand we've had the complaint, "Elf n safety gorn mad," and then suddenly every useful health & safety practice - eg the safeguarding of children - can be swept away. Councils will be tying themselves in knots trying to comply with the requirement not to discriminate against self-identified "women" who are standing naked in the leisure centre's female changing room.

There was a thread yesterday where someone was complaining about a male cleaner in the women's toilets (incidentally I thought she was BU about that) but given the number of people supporting her, can you imagine if any man could quite legally wander in? The general public really aren't aware of this bill and its implications .

Is there no, er, celebrity who will champion the cause? A "No Chaps in the Changing Room" campaign?