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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Gender Self Identification debate continued

617 replies

PoochSmooch · 25/07/2017 07:36

Continuation of the thread from here

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
Lemonjello · 25/07/2017 11:29

In order to contemplate introducing such a significant piece of legislation there must be something seriously wrong with the current process of applying for a GRC.
Where is the research into this?
I would expect to see evidence of significant harm/ distress/ impact on the lives of the people applying for one in order to consider changing it.
Except this doesn't seem to feature at all in any writing I have seen about the proposed reforms.
There should be clear evidence of a pressing need to alter the current system. Where is it?

Hotheadwheresthecoldbath · 25/07/2017 11:35

Slot of the media coverage seem to be about intersex and people who want/need the full physical change.They are completely ignoring those identifying as women but with fully functioning penis.

olliegarchy99 · 25/07/2017 11:37

terry
I can't believe that this country has a government makes badly thought out decisions on life-changing legislation that affects women in vulnerable situations, and probably everyone else in its wake, once it is passed, all to pull the rug from under the feet of the Opposition Leader because his star is temporarily a little bit higher that theirs.............
opposition parties (including JC) are in support of this proposed legislation Hmm
it seems no party has yet been brave enough to question it - unless you know differently.

AssignedMentalAtBirth · 25/07/2017 11:52

Helen Lewis is getting dog's abuse for that article, but I expect she knew she would. I think she's embraced it and decided to go for it. I think she reads MN, so if you are reading this Helen, thanks for speaking out and please keep going. You give me some hope

terrylene · 25/07/2017 11:53

Ollie - I think they are all at the mercy of that lobby group (for whatever political reason I do not understand) and JC was probably advised to jump on the band wagon to further his new role (and to detract from the student loan repayment loan controversy.)

Then the govt. decided they could pick of the Maria Miller private members bill that was kicked into the long grass (because of the general election and not because it was voted out, so it is 'unsullied') and steal his thunder for no cost.

It is like an episode of the thick of it.

dangermouseisace · 25/07/2017 11:56

There is a petition about 38 degrees removing the self ID petition as transphobic, and silencing women here

terrylene · 25/07/2017 11:57

Except this doesn't seem to feature at all in any writing I have seen about the proposed reforms.
There should be clear evidence of a pressing need to alter the current system. Where is it

They get it done on the cheap by charities who are not totally unbiased and receive funding from unbiased sources. It was a private members bill after all.

terrylene · 25/07/2017 12:00

Dangermouse - 38 degrees is the Boots of the online petition world - saving us from its inappropriate use Wink

andintothefire · 25/07/2017 12:09

Anlaf - you can see the full judgment here if it is o interest:

www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/format.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2009/2220.html

Not an easy case and I understand the concerns, but it did seem to me to be quite different from, for example, the situation of Ian Huntley (as far as I understand that at present)

user1471517513 · 25/07/2017 12:11

Datun, I used a lobbying company to make representations to politicians and civil servants . They are better at it than Joe Bloggs in the street as they have an in-depth knowledge of the public policy formation process which they have gained through many years of experience.

Not only do they know the system but they also have personal relationships with MP's and civil servants which they have built up over time something which was way out of my reach. At the time the retainer was about 3k a month. Hope I'm not teaching my granny to suck eggs!

LadyinCement · 25/07/2017 12:35

I think there is a bit of a wake up call going on: there is a piece by Tim Stanley in today's Telegraph (behind paywall). Otoh I've just got round to reading last night's Evening Standard and there is an article criticising the hysteria about the potential misuse of self-gendering.

However, all these articles sounding a note of warning about this proposed bill are just... articles. How many people are reading them? As we saw from the recent election (who could forget?) social media is what influences people now. I know it irks some, but there is the "virtue signalling" mentality which brooks no objection and, as has been mentioned, the pervading view is that all transgender people are either nice, friendly Lily Savages or easy-on-the-eye young men with a bit of pink hair.

VestalVirgin · 25/07/2017 12:36

Interestingly he also asked why is this all kicking off now and I had no answer.

It is kicking off now in part because now is the time when a male who chooses to be legally considered a woman has no disadvantages to fear.

I mean, think about it; when the suffragettes fought for women's right to vote, would any male have given up his right to vote for the right to wear dresses in public? I do not think so. (He would not have been able to enter women's spaces, as there were no public spaces for women.)

When single women were not served in restaurants - would any male have wanted to be considered a woman and treated accordingly?

When women were not allowed to have bank accounts - would any male have closed his bank account for the right to wear dresses?

In the suffragettes' days, public toilets for women weren't really a thing, or may just have been on their way to becoming a thing.
Women had to basically just squat in the streets and lift their skirts (which may have been one of the reasons underpants AND trousers took so long to became popular) just high enough to not pee on them.

Men identifying as women would only have gotten to wear a dress and to pee in the streets, and that would basically have been it - and on the downside, lost a lot of legal rights.

Now, there are only a tiny few official discriminations against women, such as primogeniture laws, which most people probably don't even know about (I don't think they're a thing in Germany) . Most misogyny takes place in a grey area where it can be explained away as coincidence. It is just coincidence there are no so few women in the government. Just a coincidence that there are so few female top managers. Et cetera.

And if a male who identifies as transwoman is hired instead of an actual woman - well, that is just coincidence, then! (Whereas if there was officially lower wages for women, the employer would have no choice but to pay his fellow male who is legally a woman lower wages)

What also plays a role is the shift from men perceiving women as private property, to be used only by one male owner, to perceiving all women as public property of all men.

To a male Muslim, it is a catastrophe if his wife's hair is seen by any male other than himself (and he knows very well what constitutes another male). To a conservative Christian in the US, the same applies to males other than him ogling his wife in the changing rooms or showers of a public pool.
But to the liberal male, a kind of man rapidly increasing in number, it is okay that the woman he has sex with is also used and abused by other men, as he also gets to use and abuse all women.
(Not saying the latter kind of man consciously thinks about it, but it is the underlying attitude.)

Conservative men do not respect women any more than liberal men, but they want their "property" to not be "damaged" by other males.
Which is why they tend to oppose genderism.
As this kind of attitude becomes less common, transgenderism can become popular.

Datun · 25/07/2017 12:38

user1471517513

No, not at all! I don't understand the system at all. I've never had to.

Can we start a go fund me page to pay lobbyists?

Do they ever do it pro bono? Might there be a horrified, gender critical, feminist lobbyist anywhere?

AssignedMentalAtBirth · 25/07/2017 12:40

And meanwhile, the mumsnet blog of the day listed is 'How to teach young children about consent'.

MNHQ, I do not consent to having naked males in the female changing room and neither do my daughters!

BeyondDrinksAndKnowsThings · 25/07/2017 12:47

Private eye have commented on gender crap, as have HIGNFY...
www.facebook.com/HaveIGotNewsForYou/photos/a.480809768770138.1073741828.470137386504043/743290415855404/?type=3

Just to reshare these links for new thread too...
Petition re deleted first petition -
www.change.org/p/38-degrees-38-degrees-stop-silencing-and-censoring-women
Gov LGBT survey -
www.gov.uk/government/consultations/national-lgbt-survey

VestalVirgin · 25/07/2017 12:48

Indeed, Assigned - how can you teach children about consent if they aren't allowed boundaries?

The conservatives have a point there:
www.theblaze.com/contributions/matt-walsh-dont-complain-about-rape-culture-if-youre-ok-with-boys-in-the-girls-locker-room/

It makes the political left look very stupid.

And I fear the consequence of this shit will not be leftist women realizing that men aren't their allies and allying with radical feminists instead, but leftist women turning conservative instead.

Anlaf · 25/07/2017 12:54

Thanks andintothefire this is very interesting

Do I read right that the prisoner transitioned only during their current sentence? Although they claimed they had a female gender since childhood and appear to have been wearing women's clothes when killing partner.

The entire thing seems predicated on unchallenged opinion from Dr James Barrett of charing cross identity clinic that living in female prison accommodation was required before having surgery. And would be good test for how she was able to cope with travails of civilian world- using the female prisoners to test how this man (with penis, although apparently unable to sustain an erection), would cope

I see judge in earlier case accepted that treating condition of gender dysphoria would be only way to reduce "serious possibly fatal risk" toany member of the public

And of course, the treatment is makeup, hormones and living in a female prison

Wd be interested to understand how this reads across to situation for other mental health conditions.

I see Helen Lewis is getting the full TERF on Twitter btw

Datun · 25/07/2017 13:19

VestalVirgin

You paint a chilling picture. Gut wrenching in it's obvious accuracy.

andintothefire · 25/07/2017 13:28

Anlaf - yes, I think the case throws up a lot of mental health concerns. Not least because the gender dysphoria appears to be linked to the very serious violent crimes committed.

I also noted that the prisoner was able to shower alone when in a male prison. Again, demonstrating that many transwomen do not want to share bathroom facilities with men (particularly I suppose if hormone treatment is ongoing). But somehow women are just supposed to put up with sharing with somebody who remains, at least in a large part, biologically male? The whole situation is just so confused and hypocritical.

AssignedMentalAtBirth · 25/07/2017 13:28

Have to say that I'm now moving away from the traditional left Vestal, solely because of this issue. Anyone who puts women and girls in danger and is happy with a reduction of women's rights for SJW reasons is not only not my ally, they are my enemy and I will fight them

Datun · 25/07/2017 13:36

That's a great article VestalVirgin

And it was written before the latest news too.

Just linking it again.

www.theblaze.com/contributions/matt-walsh-dont-complain-about-rape-culture-if-youre-ok-with-boys-in-the-girls-locker-room/

PoochSmooch · 25/07/2017 14:05

I usually love your analysis, Datun, but I'm not keen on that article.

I get a bit fed up of right-leaning men only discovering aspects of feminism when it's useful for a political point.

I think there's some interesting stuff in there about how illogical it is to bemoan male violence, but then excoriate women who wish to continue existing sex segregation due in part to that fear of male violence. But I don't like how he says it.

Like with Hands Across the Aisle, I know this will make for some strange bedfellows - but in feminist action, this isn't the first time - for example, in campaigns on porn there are alliances with right leaning and faith based organisations. I think we need to keep clear water between those of us who are gender critical from doing feminist analysis and because we want an end to gender, and so a liberation of women, and those who are gender critical because they want to keep gender as it is - men things for men, and women things for women.

OP posts:
Datun · 25/07/2017 14:31

You're probably right PoochSmooch. I do tend to take these things at face value.

And I agree with the hands across the aisle thing. No credibility.

I think it was just a relief that someone is pointing out the ludicrous hypocrisy of bemoaning a rape culture on the one hand and legislating to allow men in women's spaces on the other.

I'm getting weary of the way some articles are written. The assurances that we do want to be nice, we do want to help, but, but, but...

It's a product of being too immersed in this shit, I think. I see such misogyny, my arguments dry up because the main argument is just me saying no, fuck off.

Women saying no should be the end of it. Since when have we arrived at the point at which women saying no isn't good enough?

That it has to be justified. Statistics, citations, crimes committed, etc.

Women know. We live in a woman's world. It gets so tedious explaining to people why all the time. We know why.

hackmum · 25/07/2017 14:43

I know what you mean, Pooch. Obviously it's cmoing from a right-wing perspective and attacking liberals/lefties for their inconsistency. The annoying thing is that he's absolutely right about the inconsistency. He's saying exactly what we've all been saying for ages:

'With that established, there’s another point that bears frequent reiteration: The very people who so often claim that we’re living in a “rape culture,” and who are apt to cry harassment when a man so much as compliments a woman in the wrong way, and who often say that America is such a misogynistic hellhole that women can’t even walk down the street without fearing assault or rape, are the same ones who tell young girls to shut up and stop complaining when men with penises stroll into their locker rooms and bathrooms. In every other context, men are chastised for their “male privilege” if they act in a way that makes women uncomfortable — even if the behavior in question is completely innocent and non-threatening — but if a girl is uncomfortable looking at penises in her locker room, suddenly she’s the one who gets yelled at for being inconsiderate. In the minds of our nation’s Leftists, a man has persecuted a woman when he spreads his legs too wide on the subway, but if he disrobes in front of her in the bathroom and she feels uneasy, it is she who has persecuted him.'

He's right to point out that this is insane (even if I don't accept the snide point about men complimenting women in the wrong way). It absolutely makes no logical sense at all. But if you point it out you get shouted down as "transphobic".

I notice that a Tory called Mary Douglas has been attacked as "transphobic" for saying on radio that transgenderism is a mental illness (even though it's defined as such in the DSM). We are, it's true, ending up with some strange bedfellows.

StatelessPrincess · 25/07/2017 14:51

A person can be religious/conservative but be against misogyny. It's not always so black and white. I don't agree that groups like Hands Across the Aisle have no credibility, surely if people from very different backgrounds hold the same views it gives those views more credibility? And I think there's something to be said for strength in numbers.

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