Gender Self Identification debate continued

[PoochSmooch]

Continuation of the thread from here

hackmum

I don't think that trans is defined as the mental illness though. Gender dysphoria still is.

Firstly, you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans anymore. Stonewall's own site includes transvestite cross dressing fetishists as trans.

Secondly, and I only really got a bit of a handle on this yesterday after doing some more reading - without a diagnosis of something you can't get treatment. So no hormones, surgery, nothing. But you can't go around giving mental disorders civil rights over women.

So gender dysphoria gets you the treatment, after which you are trans, which is not a disorder, therefore you get the Civil Rights.

If you don't want treatment, (and 80% of transwomen keep their penis), you cut out the middle man and go straight to civil rights.

StatelessPrincess

I've seen the argument that no one is listening to women so we have to go to the far right to get listened to, despite the fact that most people on here are left. It serves to illustrate the desperation.

No you don't have to agree with everything a group says just because you agree with one thing.

But that argument somehow looks a little weak when other people invoke God along the lines of it's unnatural, women are women, men are men. And then they bang on about how bad homosexuality is.

That's what I meant about undermining credibility. I'm sure there are some reasonable religious groups. But they will get lumped in with the fundamentalists.

I've seen it played out online. One whiff of the word God and everyone just glazes over.

I also think the lack of logic in aligning yourself with one group who has a belief system to oppose another group's belief system isn't lost on people.

I would like to add that the Christians I know are some of the nicest people in the world.

I'm not a believer, sometimes I wish I was!

People on the last thread were discussing why this issue has been given so much importance, financial backing and attention compared to movements for women's rights or BME rights or gay rights. I suspect it is because this is an issue which affects rich, white, able bodied, heterosexual men, therefore it is of far more importance than all the trivial stuff other groups might be complaining about. Let's face it, that group are at the top of the heap, they might throw us a few crumbs but timely they can and will put their own interests before ours.

I agree. I can't help thinking there must be a lot of secret cross dressers who are bankers and property magnets. And political movers and shakers.

Also pharmaceutical companies. There is controversy raging in America about what you can get on your insurance.

Lifelong hormones is a nice little learner.

Which is another reason why I don't understand the traction here. The NHS are forking out for this.

Datun I see your point. I'm just frustrated that people will see my reasons for being opposed to this bill as being religious ones when actually I'm opposed to it simply because I'm a woman and a mother and I think all women should have the right to be safe.

And I still want to know why none of these threads have been put in the mumsnet trending box

I've long wondered why so many threads on women's rights that attract many posts don't make the 'trending' box.

StatelessPrincess

Ah yes, I totally get that frustration.

I had someone accuse me of being opposed to it just because I was a woman!

The thing is, it's an enormous mind fuck of justification for everyone.

But if you're religious, it's just adding another layer because you have to bang on even more about the actual, logical, consistent reasons.

I get it - but don't stop!

4 popular threads in 2 days about the same thing and not one has made it in.

I seem to remember they were whipped out of trending at around the time of the IOC threads?

I don't understand it either. Especially as the opinion on here seems to have had a huge sea change.

It used to drive me nuts when I saw people despairing about the damaging gendering of children, and then calling feminists bigots and terfs.

I had someone accuse me of being opposed to it just because I was a woman! Ffs!
Well I'm trying, I do think that most people I know in real life agree with me but as I said on the other thread my non Muslim friends haven't commented on anything I've said. It's not enough for people to agree though, we have to actually be heard and I don't really know how to achieve that unfortunately. I hope one of these petitions will really take off. I actually thought MNHQ would be on our side, it's always seemed such a feminist site to me.

Datun: "If you don't want treatment, (and 80% of transwomen keep their penis), you cut out the middle man and go straight to civil rights."

Thanks for the explanation about the difference between gender dysphoria and transgenderism, which I hadn't fully appreciated before.

So if I've understood this correctly - you no longer have to feel that you're trapped in the wrong body to be trans? You don't have to have a deep-seated belief that you are really a woman, despite having a male body? You can just be someone who enjoys dressing in women's clothing? And bingo - you're trans, and that means you will be able to go into women's spaces - toilets, changing rooms, rape crisis centres, whatever?

It's even more Alice-in-Wonderland batshit than I thought.

hackmum It completely defies logic. Have you heard of Danielle Muscato? Have a google if you haven't, it'll be pretty eye opening.

So if I've understood this correctly - you no longer have to feel that you're trapped in the wrong body to be trans? You don't have to have a deep-seated belief that you are really a woman, despite having a male body?

Oh, I think the deep-seated belief is still required.
But you can now have a deep-seated belief that you are really a woman and this makes your penis female.

But you absolutely cannot believe that you are a woman despite having a male body. Acknowledging that bodies with penises are male is transphobic.

That's correct, hackmum. In fact, the tide has turned so far that believing that dysphoria or dysmorphia is a pre-requisite for being trans is itself considered (by some) as transphobic. Mind bending, isn't it?

Datun, re this: Since when have we arrived at the point at which women saying no isn't good enough?, well while I very much expect this from some parts of the population, where that is always a popular view, I do find it incredible when people who call themselves feminists make arguments in support of the position "women saying no is not enough". That makes no sense to me!

Danielle Muscato is a woman apparently. I've just been told that transwomen are women and transmen are men and that's the end of it. This is in a feminist facebook group ffs. So clearly now i'm going to have to leave because i'm the nasty bigot.

It would be much easier to just give up and agree with all this utter bullshit wouldn't it.

I've been reading these threads with interest but haven't commented, I have been learning a lot from them. Just wanted to check in, in case anything was needed.

I've just been told that transwomen are women and transmen are men and that's the end of it.

Have you asked them what they are going to do about primogeniture laws? Younger brothers inheriting estates that rightfully should go to their elder trans brothers?

I do wonder why that is so not at all on their radar ...

It would be much easier to just give up and agree with all this utter bullshit wouldn't it.

It would. I tried to hang out with feminists who are like that, but in the end, I just couldn't bear the stupidity of it all.

... to clarify, it seems easier, in theory, to go along with the bullshit, but I find in the end, I just can't. Because it is bullshit.

Perhaps, if I fooled myself into believing it myself, I would not feel a constant need to stand up and say that it's bollocks, but I don't want to be made a slave in my own mind.

Placemarking.

I've been getting really upset about this. I commented on Jeremy corbynn Facebook page and got more and more frustrated, especially by the arrogant demands of "define women"!!! No, I fucking won't define myself to a spotty male teenager. How about they define transwoman? Crossdresser? Transvestite? Rapist? Nope, these people aren't trans and they don't see the hypocrosy in supporting self identification then dictating who is and is not trans. Idiotic fuckers.

Because what becomes really obvious is that every transwoman IS THE NICEST PERSON YOU COULD EVER HOPE TO MEET. Crossdressers or transvestites, criminals , bullys and sex offenders are not real trans. Because being nice and lovely is the criteria.

I could explode.

I wonder what they are planning on doing about the GCSE and A level biology syllabi. I think questioning this makes it apparent how bonkers this all is.

Because being nice and lovely is the criteria.

Just not really, because I can very well imagine what the reaction would be if I told a male that I don't want him in the women's changing room because he's not nice and lovely enough to qualify as transwoman.
(If we were allowed to make that distinction, that would actually work quite well. After all, wanting to invade women's spaces is not nice, therefore any dude demanding access to women's spaces would automatically be not a true transwoman!)

It is only after a male has raped a woman that one may consider him no true transwoman. (Of course only after a jury of males has agreed that it was really rape.)

That's a really interesting point Summerkelly I'd love to know how it's going to be addressed or even how it can be.

ThymeLord I honestly don't know how people can say Danielle Muscato is a woman and keep a straight face. He says he is unable to transition medically but internally is a woman. What does that mean though, if I can't say what it feels like and I was born one then how can he know? By his definitions is he actually more of a woman than me? It fries my brain thinking about it.

Datun said, 'Especially as the opinion on here seems to have had a huge sea change'.

That might just be that those who disagree with you are no longer responding, because of the tone of the thread and the general attitudes displayed.