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Gender Self Identity Law coming! MNQH and Mumsnetters: Time to pick a side

999 replies

AssignedMentalAtBirth · 23/07/2017 10:09

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40692782

This is going to happen unless we speak out now.

Other thread in feminist chat

Fence sitters everywhere, please read, be aware of what is coming

From the Times:
Tories promote the right to choose your own sex
Transgender reforms for birth certificates
Adults will be able to change their gender legally without a doctor’s diagnosis under government plans that will transform British society.
Men will be able to identify themselves as women — and women as men — and have their birth certificates altered to record their new gender.
Ministers plan to tear up the existing rules that mean people have to live for two years as their desired gender before they can officially change sex.
A consultation on the Gender Recognition Bill, to be published in the autumn, will also include proposals to scrap the requirement that people get a formal medical diagnosis of “gender dysphoria” before applying to switch gender.
Critics warned that allowing people in effect to “self-identify” as a member of the opposite sex, while maintaining the anatomy of their birth gender, would unleash a firestorm of legal cases over access to women-only hospital wards, prisons, lavatories, changing rooms and competitive sports.
Justine Greening, the minister for women and equalities, called the move to give more rights to transgender people the third great “step forward” after equality for women and the legalisation of same-sex marriage in 2013.
The announcement is timed to coincide with the 50th anniversary of the partial decriminalisation of homosexuality in 1967. Greening said ministers want to “streamline and demedicalise” gender change to make it easier for people to switch their identity legally.
In future people are expected to be required only to make a statutory declaration that they intend to live in the acquired gender until death — in line with arrangements already adopted in Ireland.
The consultation will address whether those whose gender is “non-binary” should also be able to define themselves as “X” on their birth certificates.
A separate consultation in Scotland will go further than England and Wales by recommending that “non-binary” people should be able to define themselves as “X” on passports. It will also propose a cut in the age at which people can change their gender from 18 to 16.
The plans will be controversial. Prominent feminists including Germaine Greer and Dame Jenni Murray, the presenter of Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour, have questioned whether men can become women even if they undergo a sex-change operation.
Stephanie Davies-Arai of Transgender Trend, a parents’ group, said: “This has huge implications for women. There will be legal cases. The most worrying thing is if any man can identify as a woman with no tests and gain access to spaces where women might be getting undressed or feel vulnerable — like women’s hospital wards, refuges and rape crisis centres — women will just stop going to these facilities.”
Self-identifying was recommended by a parliamentary committee last year chaired by the former cabinet minister Maria Miller and it has the backing of Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn.
Greening also announced the government will make it easier for gay men to give blood. At the moment men who have had sexual contact with other men are barred from donating for 12 months. That will be reduced to three months.

Ministers will launch a national survey of Britain’s estimated 1.5m LGBT people to help inform policy.
The education department has also announced £3m will be spent on “anti-homophobic and transphobic programmes”. Schools, including faith schools, will be required to include LGBT issues in relationships and sex education.
Greening, who is in a relationship with a woman, said: “This government is committed to building an inclusive society that works for everyone, no matter what their gender or sexuality.
“We will build on the significant progress we have made over the past 50 years, tackling some of the historic prejudices that still persist in our laws and giving LGBT people a real say on the issues affecting them.”
Ruth Hunt, chief executive of Stonewall, the lobbying organisation, welcomed the plans. “We need a simple process which isn’t medicalised, intrusive or demeaning,” she said.
The move will put the government on a collision course with some religious groups. Simon Calvert of the Christian Institute said: “It is worrying when the leaders of the main political parties are so out of touch with the concerns of ordinary people.
“Allowing men to self-identify as female without any medical diagnosis allows them to invade the privacy of women and girls.
“It’s time for a reality check. Some things can’t be changed. May and Corbyn want to elevate the principle of ‘gender self-declaration’. But it is wrong, it is anti-scientific and it is dangerous.”
A source who is close to Greening acknowledged that the proposed changes could be problematic. “That’s why we are going to have a consultation, so we can examine all the implications,” the source said.
A Scottish government spokeswoman said it hopes to have “new arrangements in place by 2020”.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
SpartacusSaiman · 23/07/2017 12:27

Because if biological men have a problem with trans men using their space. They can complain about that themseleves.

But men are unlikely to be raped by a man with a vagina.

AssignedMentalAtBirth · 23/07/2017 12:28

Babycham
I'm not the least bit interested in persuading you, when you so clearly have no interest in the safety, privacy and rights of women and girls

OP posts:
sleighbellend · 23/07/2017 12:29

Sure, gender is a social construct. But sex isn't. There is no proof at all that you can be 'born in the wrong body', any more than the existence of people with BIID is proof that humans should actually have one leg.

VestalVirgin · 23/07/2017 12:30

I've got one! I've thought of an advantage women would get identifying as male. If you're muslim you could go to male prayers

Is that an advantage, though? Presumably they only pray there. If they talk politics, or make important decisions, you can be sure, they won't allow women in, however those women identify.

Apparently, only male noblemen can inherit estates and seats in the House or Lords. Yes, male noblemen. Biologically female, self-identified noblemen cannot. And I am sure there's more of such nice little exceptions for preserving male privilege.

Men will not lose anything with the trans law changes. If they would, they would oppose it.

SmileEachDay · 23/07/2017 12:30

Science recognises transgender as a thing, because gender is a social construct.

I don't understand this statement? Did you mean society recognises?

andintothefire · 23/07/2017 12:30

Babycham - I think most people wouldn't have a problem in theory with the gender neutral cubicles you describe. But here are just a few situations where they may be problems with them:

They would need to be floor to ceiling to prevent men peering over the top at women (something which I have experienced).

In remote areas, e.g. rural train stations late at night, predatory men could hang around those cubicles to attack a lone woman coming in. And nobody would be able to challenge that man for being in a female only space.

Men would complain at the lack of urinals. Everybody would complain about the additional queuing time. Or do you propose a urinal space too? If so, would you let women use it? How comfortable do you think all men would be with that?

In spaces such as bars and clubs, women often want an area where they can do makeup or simply feel safe without drunken male idiots trying it on with them or hassling them.

Lots of existing organisations simply do not have space for the cubicles you describe. So instead they just designate everything as "gender neutral" and ignore the fact that this means women are queuing for even longer.

And suddenly, the apparently simple answer really isn't always that simple or neutral from the perspective of women's safety and comfort..

SylviaPoe · 23/07/2017 12:31

It is ridiculous that a teacher should have to stand in school toilets to monitor them.

ludog · 23/07/2017 12:31

I hold some sincere religious beliefs. I expect the law to uphold my right to hold those beliefs and to live according to them. I don't expect to suffer discrimination because of my beliefs. What I DON'T expect is for the law to insist that everyone else believes as I do, I don't expect anyone to be punished for disagreeing with me and I certainly don't expect language to be rewritten to reflect my beliefs (and for others to be prosecuted for not using the correct language). Trans has become a cult and it it truly terrifying that laws are being passed to force us all to comply with this crazy new orthodoxy.

SpartacusSaiman · 23/07/2017 12:32

They are open plan and there is always a teacher on duty to monitor anything going on. Students have overwhelmingly told us how much they prefer them to the old style!

So you have to have a qualified teacher in there, rather than the classroom, to supervise. Were the toilets supervised before?

If its so great why does an adult need ti supervised its use?

andintothefire · 23/07/2017 12:32

PS and I am sure no business would have a problem employing a member of staff to sit constantly in your large open plan cubicles to "monitor anything going on" Hmm

Whisky2014 · 23/07/2017 12:32

I will say I don't know or understand what the hoo ha is. I don't see it as regressive and I don't know what we need to be protesting about it? Are men as concerned about this because surely they are being eradicated too?
We all know male and females still exist. And trans people exist also. So what's the issue?

DJBaggySmalls · 23/07/2017 12:33

I started a vote thread in Chat.

SmileEachDay · 23/07/2017 12:33

As an aside, under the new legislation, being trans would not longer be recognised as a MH condition by the NHS - for transparency my source for this is an article in Attitude magazine, so poss not reliable...

Surely this is a bad thing, especially for young people who are struggling with their identity and need proper unbiased support?

BabychamSocialist · 23/07/2017 12:33

AssignedMentalAtBirth

Thanks - clearly you know me better than I do, even though I've been a feminist for nearly 30 years and have volunteered at a rape crisis centre.

I care about all people - women, girls, boys, men, transgender people, disabled people etc. I don't want anyone to be discriminated against.

DameDeDoubtance · 23/07/2017 12:34

Sexual assaults on girls in schools have risen dramatically so mow is not the time to give away girls safe spaces.

Sure, girls say they are cool with this, they are groomed by society not to male a fuss, plus look at all the grief they would get if they raised there have and spoke out. They would be vilified as a bigot.

If you accept that gender is a social construct then you accept that means it isn't real and is completely divorced from reality.

A social construct does not need rights, biological sexes do.

SylviaPoe · 23/07/2017 12:34

Whisky, my main concern is that I would want intimate medical examinations to be carried out on me by a woman, and I would want to be in a single sex ward.

Many other women feel the same way.

TinklyLittleLaugh · 23/07/2017 12:34

I'm not worried about unisex bathrooms or changing rooms. That is easily solved by decent design and actually helpful to anyone accompanying a child of the opposite sex.

But the serious stuff relates to men accessing places where women are vulnerable; refuges, hospitals, prisons.

And men seeking to take awards and prizes meant for women; in sport, in business, in STEM.

But mostly this makes me depressed because to fight it we have to align ourselves with powerful people who only believe women should have separate spaces because they feel women are inferior: defenders of primogeniture, men only clubs, radical muslims and other sexist groups.

SpartacusSaiman · 23/07/2017 12:35

Whiskey women are much more likely to be a victim of crime at the hands of a man.

Men are more likely to victims of crime at the hands of a man.

Men already share private spaces with the group that poses most risk.

BabychamSocialist · 23/07/2017 12:35

Err, the monitor is there so they can see if a kid is (for example) smoking in one of the cubicles or causing damage.

We've had toilet monitors for at least 20 years, even before we had unisex bathrooms.

ThymeLord · 23/07/2017 12:35

You can't claim to be a feminist when you're happy to throw women and girls under the bus. The two just don't correlate.

BahHumbygge · 23/07/2017 12:35

Babycham, would you be willing to enter such a bathroom on a quiet railway platform late at night. Where you come face to shoulders with a bloke coming out of the cubicles, I know for myself I would feel very intimidated in that situation. It would influence me in the direction of staying indoors and avoiding times and places where I am in a mixed sex intimate space with little safety in numbers from others. So we go back to the old days where women's right to movement and participation in society are curtailed due to safety, privacy and dignity fears.

Introducing women's public toilets in the victorian age was a massive step forwards for women's rights and emancipation as they could venture more than a 2 hour radius beyond their house... could start going to work, shopping and big public events. This legislation, by decreeing that public toilets are now designated by gender, ie mixed sex, puts us back to before that era.

SylviaPoe · 23/07/2017 12:37

I am astounded that teachers are being expected to stand in school toilets during the lunch break.

SpartacusSaiman · 23/07/2017 12:37

baby you volunteered at a rape centre and dont get why those women wont want a biological male there? Really?

I dont want trans people discriminated against. But i dont want women to lose out either.

If you are for all people you can not possibly agree with whats proposed. What about female sport?

SylviaPoe · 23/07/2017 12:38

Tinkly, primogeniture is exempted anyway, from all laws around gender identity.

So opposing self identification does not put you on the same side as people defending it.

SpartacusSaiman · 23/07/2017 12:39

Err, the monitor is there so they can see if a kid is (for example) smoking in one of the cubicles or causing damage.

We've had toilet monitors for at least 20 years, even before we had unisex bathrooms.

Not in any school i have known. I am 33. I have 2 kids. One is 13 and one is 6. None od the schools any of us (including dh) has gone to has toilet monitors.