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Gender Self Identity Law coming! MNQH and Mumsnetters: Time to pick a side

999 replies

AssignedMentalAtBirth · 23/07/2017 10:09

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40692782

This is going to happen unless we speak out now.

Other thread in feminist chat

Fence sitters everywhere, please read, be aware of what is coming

From the Times:
Tories promote the right to choose your own sex
Transgender reforms for birth certificates
Adults will be able to change their gender legally without a doctor’s diagnosis under government plans that will transform British society.
Men will be able to identify themselves as women — and women as men — and have their birth certificates altered to record their new gender.
Ministers plan to tear up the existing rules that mean people have to live for two years as their desired gender before they can officially change sex.
A consultation on the Gender Recognition Bill, to be published in the autumn, will also include proposals to scrap the requirement that people get a formal medical diagnosis of “gender dysphoria” before applying to switch gender.
Critics warned that allowing people in effect to “self-identify” as a member of the opposite sex, while maintaining the anatomy of their birth gender, would unleash a firestorm of legal cases over access to women-only hospital wards, prisons, lavatories, changing rooms and competitive sports.
Justine Greening, the minister for women and equalities, called the move to give more rights to transgender people the third great “step forward” after equality for women and the legalisation of same-sex marriage in 2013.
The announcement is timed to coincide with the 50th anniversary of the partial decriminalisation of homosexuality in 1967. Greening said ministers want to “streamline and demedicalise” gender change to make it easier for people to switch their identity legally.
In future people are expected to be required only to make a statutory declaration that they intend to live in the acquired gender until death — in line with arrangements already adopted in Ireland.
The consultation will address whether those whose gender is “non-binary” should also be able to define themselves as “X” on their birth certificates.
A separate consultation in Scotland will go further than England and Wales by recommending that “non-binary” people should be able to define themselves as “X” on passports. It will also propose a cut in the age at which people can change their gender from 18 to 16.
The plans will be controversial. Prominent feminists including Germaine Greer and Dame Jenni Murray, the presenter of Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour, have questioned whether men can become women even if they undergo a sex-change operation.
Stephanie Davies-Arai of Transgender Trend, a parents’ group, said: “This has huge implications for women. There will be legal cases. The most worrying thing is if any man can identify as a woman with no tests and gain access to spaces where women might be getting undressed or feel vulnerable — like women’s hospital wards, refuges and rape crisis centres — women will just stop going to these facilities.”
Self-identifying was recommended by a parliamentary committee last year chaired by the former cabinet minister Maria Miller and it has the backing of Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn.
Greening also announced the government will make it easier for gay men to give blood. At the moment men who have had sexual contact with other men are barred from donating for 12 months. That will be reduced to three months.

Ministers will launch a national survey of Britain’s estimated 1.5m LGBT people to help inform policy.
The education department has also announced £3m will be spent on “anti-homophobic and transphobic programmes”. Schools, including faith schools, will be required to include LGBT issues in relationships and sex education.
Greening, who is in a relationship with a woman, said: “This government is committed to building an inclusive society that works for everyone, no matter what their gender or sexuality.
“We will build on the significant progress we have made over the past 50 years, tackling some of the historic prejudices that still persist in our laws and giving LGBT people a real say on the issues affecting them.”
Ruth Hunt, chief executive of Stonewall, the lobbying organisation, welcomed the plans. “We need a simple process which isn’t medicalised, intrusive or demeaning,” she said.
The move will put the government on a collision course with some religious groups. Simon Calvert of the Christian Institute said: “It is worrying when the leaders of the main political parties are so out of touch with the concerns of ordinary people.
“Allowing men to self-identify as female without any medical diagnosis allows them to invade the privacy of women and girls.
“It’s time for a reality check. Some things can’t be changed. May and Corbyn want to elevate the principle of ‘gender self-declaration’. But it is wrong, it is anti-scientific and it is dangerous.”
A source who is close to Greening acknowledged that the proposed changes could be problematic. “That’s why we are going to have a consultation, so we can examine all the implications,” the source said.
A Scottish government spokeswoman said it hopes to have “new arrangements in place by 2020”.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
SylviaPoe · 23/07/2017 12:11

The safest thing to do would be to self identify as a trans man, because trans men are usually given private rooms rather than put in with other men.

SmileEachDay · 23/07/2017 12:14

I'm happy for anyone to self-identify as what they want, and the legal options to do so should be available to them. I don't have any issue at all with it, and am happy to support the LGBTQ+ community on this matter, and I say that as a feminist.

Do you agree that anyone self identifying as a man should be allowed access to a women's refuge?

BabychamSocialist · 23/07/2017 12:15

sleighbellend

Yes, I do sympathise but at the end of the day, what is in someone's trousers is of no concern to me. I want people to stop killing themselves because they aren't happy with how they were born.

There are cases where there would have to be some tough choices made, like the ones you suggested, but those are a matter for the organisations or governments in question.

jellyfrizz · 23/07/2017 12:15

I'm happy for anyone to self-identify as what they want

So am I, as long as sex is still given priority when biology differs e.g. health, sport, contraception, maternity etc.

Who cares what gender people identify as? Why does that matter?

Biological sex on the other hand does matter for a number of reasons that you can't identify your way out of.

AssignedMentalAtBirth · 23/07/2017 12:17

Babycham
You are not a feminist. You are a traitor to women and girls

OP posts:
Notcontent · 23/07/2017 12:18

So I might as well tell my 11 year old dd not to bother with training in her sport, because while she is doing really well in her sport, in 5 years time, when she could be competing at national level, she will probably have no chance simply by reason of being born with ovaries???

SpartacusSaiman · 23/07/2017 12:18

Baby i want people using their penis to rape women. I want women not to end up killing themselves after being abused by men.

I want these women to have safe spaces to go where they dont have to deal with people with penis'.

Do you care about women who kill themseleves after rapes? Do you care how they feel?

Why would a trans women kill herself instead of using a male (sex not gender) bathroom?

glenthebattleostrich · 23/07/2017 12:18

Babycham, perhaps the answer is improving mental health support rather than selling women down the river.

BabychamSocialist · 23/07/2017 12:19

AssignedMentalAtBirth

Wow, you're never going to persuade people to come to your side if you call them traitors. FFS.

sleighbellend · 23/07/2017 12:19

But people kill themselves because of all sorts of reasons. Men kill themselves because their wives leave them. People starve themselves to death because they think they're fat.

We can't legislate women's rights away because sometimes mentally ill men commit suicide.

SylviaPoe · 23/07/2017 12:19

'There are cases where there would have to be some tough choices made, like the ones you suggested, but those are a matter for the organisations or governments in question.'

Have I missed something here? I thought the point of the legislation proposed was that anyone who self identifies as a woman can legally access women's spaces. What you've written above implies that this is not the case.

glenthebattleostrich · 23/07/2017 12:19

A genuine question for those supporting this -

If you believe that it is possible to change gender, and believe that gender is more important than sex, do you believe it is possible to be trans racial and trans species?

If not why not?

DameDeDoubtance · 23/07/2017 12:20

I want people to stop killing themselves because they aren't happy with how they were born.

3 women are murdered by men each week.

BabychamSocialist · 23/07/2017 12:21

Spartacus

Of course I care about those things. Why wouldn't I? It's very hard to explain the bathroom issue but I can tell you a way to solve it. Unisex open plan bathrooms where it's just rows of cubicles. Everybody uses the same cubicles, and nobody gets offended over using the 'wrong' bathroom.

We have these in our school now and I don't know why they haven't been more widely created.

StatelessPrincess · 23/07/2017 12:21

BabychamSocialist enabling mental illness doesn't make it go away

M0stlyBowlingHedgehog · 23/07/2017 12:21

"There are cases where there would have to be some tough choices made, like the ones you suggested, but those are a matter for the organisations or governments in question."

But do you not understand that this is the whole point of this thread? If this legislation goes through, there will be no latitude whatsoever for organisations to make these choices. Someone commits rape (penis into bodily orifice - that's how it's defined in UK law) then identifies as female - they have to be housed in a women's prison. No latitude, no room to say "this is a difficult case" because it would be illegal to discriminate.

Someone wants to compete in a women's race which may qualify them for the UK women's team in that sport for the olympics if they get a fast enough finishing time. Still got a penis? No room for the UK athletics association to say "this is a difficult case" because it would be illegal to discriminate.

A woman goes for her smear test and is confronted with a 6'6" transwoman with stubble and says "I'd rather have a female nurse". No room to say "this is a difficult case" - the woman needing the smear gets struck off her GP's list for discriminating unreasonably and unlawfully against the trans HCP.

There is no wriggle room. There is no latitude for difficult cases. That's why this law is so scary. It's not going to protect friends like your transwoman friend. It's going to make it impossible for women to demand any spaces or activities appropriate to their biology.

SmileEachDay · 23/07/2017 12:23

There are cases where there would have to be some tough choices made, like the ones you suggested, but those are a matter for the organisations or governments in question.

The 'tough choices' end up with vulnerable women being thrown under a bus - organisations won't be legally allowed to exclude anyone on the grounds of their sex. Not having an 'onslaught of legal challenges' is one of the motivating factors behind this suggested policy.

SpartacusSaiman · 23/07/2017 12:23

Unisex open plan bathrooms where it's just rows of cubicles. Everybody uses the same cubicles, and nobody gets offended over using the 'wrong' bathroom.

And what about the people who dont want to share bathrooms with men or people with a penis?

Again what abiut rape victims? Abuse victims? Why does the mental health of the trans community have to step on women.

Why dont they fight for their own spaces? Their own support without taking from women.

Why is it up to women to give our spaces up?

DameDeDoubtance · 23/07/2017 12:25

So women, who are already oppressed must cave in to the demands of a minority because they might commit suicide? My ex used to say that, I stayed with him for years. I am not making light of people who say they will commit suicide, but is caving in to every demand they make and taking away hard won rights, placing girls and women in danger, reducing their access to safety, is that really the way forward?

SpartacusSaiman · 23/07/2017 12:25

We have these in our school now and I don't know why they haven't been more widely created.

Jesus thays awful. Do you knoe your dauggter has a high chabce of being sexually assaultes at school? Why would you want unisex toilets. Where girls are vulnerable?

BabychamSocialist · 23/07/2017 12:26

Why are we only mentioning transwomen? What about transmen? No, I don't think you can be transracial or transspecies, because science doesn't support that. Science recognises transgender as a thing, because gender is a social construct.

Notcontent · 23/07/2017 12:27

We could easily end up with a world where women who are born biologically female are third class citizens - considered weak, unable to compete in any sport, etc.

DJBaggySmalls · 23/07/2017 12:27

Politicians believe that men can be trusted not to abuse this system.
Any man will be able to download a form, declare he is a women, and be permitted access to any female space.
There is nowhere that men cannot be excluded from. Its not just toilets, sex is being erased as a protected class.

Womens sports are already affected. Crime statistics are being skewed. At least one serial killer evaded detection for years as police were looking for a man based on his DNA.

This will affect women with dementia or diminished mental capacity, who are already at a higher risk. It will affect women from religions who cannot mingle with men.
It will legally eradicate all women only spaces.

Why not create a third gender neutral space

CommonSenseIsNotAllThatCommon · 23/07/2017 12:27

I am going with dd view of this. Dd is asd.
I'm going to identify as an OAP. I want to claim my pension and be able to move to over 60s accomadation. I want OAP discounts.

BabychamSocialist · 23/07/2017 12:27

Spartacus

They are open plan and there is always a teacher on duty to monitor anything going on. Students have overwhelmingly told us how much they prefer them to the old style!