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Gender Self Identity Law coming! MNQH and Mumsnetters: Time to pick a side

999 replies

AssignedMentalAtBirth · 23/07/2017 10:09

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40692782

This is going to happen unless we speak out now.

Other thread in feminist chat

Fence sitters everywhere, please read, be aware of what is coming

From the Times:
Tories promote the right to choose your own sex
Transgender reforms for birth certificates
Adults will be able to change their gender legally without a doctor’s diagnosis under government plans that will transform British society.
Men will be able to identify themselves as women — and women as men — and have their birth certificates altered to record their new gender.
Ministers plan to tear up the existing rules that mean people have to live for two years as their desired gender before they can officially change sex.
A consultation on the Gender Recognition Bill, to be published in the autumn, will also include proposals to scrap the requirement that people get a formal medical diagnosis of “gender dysphoria” before applying to switch gender.
Critics warned that allowing people in effect to “self-identify” as a member of the opposite sex, while maintaining the anatomy of their birth gender, would unleash a firestorm of legal cases over access to women-only hospital wards, prisons, lavatories, changing rooms and competitive sports.
Justine Greening, the minister for women and equalities, called the move to give more rights to transgender people the third great “step forward” after equality for women and the legalisation of same-sex marriage in 2013.
The announcement is timed to coincide with the 50th anniversary of the partial decriminalisation of homosexuality in 1967. Greening said ministers want to “streamline and demedicalise” gender change to make it easier for people to switch their identity legally.
In future people are expected to be required only to make a statutory declaration that they intend to live in the acquired gender until death — in line with arrangements already adopted in Ireland.
The consultation will address whether those whose gender is “non-binary” should also be able to define themselves as “X” on their birth certificates.
A separate consultation in Scotland will go further than England and Wales by recommending that “non-binary” people should be able to define themselves as “X” on passports. It will also propose a cut in the age at which people can change their gender from 18 to 16.
The plans will be controversial. Prominent feminists including Germaine Greer and Dame Jenni Murray, the presenter of Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour, have questioned whether men can become women even if they undergo a sex-change operation.
Stephanie Davies-Arai of Transgender Trend, a parents’ group, said: “This has huge implications for women. There will be legal cases. The most worrying thing is if any man can identify as a woman with no tests and gain access to spaces where women might be getting undressed or feel vulnerable — like women’s hospital wards, refuges and rape crisis centres — women will just stop going to these facilities.”
Self-identifying was recommended by a parliamentary committee last year chaired by the former cabinet minister Maria Miller and it has the backing of Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn.
Greening also announced the government will make it easier for gay men to give blood. At the moment men who have had sexual contact with other men are barred from donating for 12 months. That will be reduced to three months.

Ministers will launch a national survey of Britain’s estimated 1.5m LGBT people to help inform policy.
The education department has also announced £3m will be spent on “anti-homophobic and transphobic programmes”. Schools, including faith schools, will be required to include LGBT issues in relationships and sex education.
Greening, who is in a relationship with a woman, said: “This government is committed to building an inclusive society that works for everyone, no matter what their gender or sexuality.
“We will build on the significant progress we have made over the past 50 years, tackling some of the historic prejudices that still persist in our laws and giving LGBT people a real say on the issues affecting them.”
Ruth Hunt, chief executive of Stonewall, the lobbying organisation, welcomed the plans. “We need a simple process which isn’t medicalised, intrusive or demeaning,” she said.
The move will put the government on a collision course with some religious groups. Simon Calvert of the Christian Institute said: “It is worrying when the leaders of the main political parties are so out of touch with the concerns of ordinary people.
“Allowing men to self-identify as female without any medical diagnosis allows them to invade the privacy of women and girls.
“It’s time for a reality check. Some things can’t be changed. May and Corbyn want to elevate the principle of ‘gender self-declaration’. But it is wrong, it is anti-scientific and it is dangerous.”
A source who is close to Greening acknowledged that the proposed changes could be problematic. “That’s why we are going to have a consultation, so we can examine all the implications,” the source said.
A Scottish government spokeswoman said it hopes to have “new arrangements in place by 2020”.

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5
venusinscorpio · 24/07/2017 15:44

If you really have to use google to find feminist comment on this topic, then you are not an engaged feminist in any sense of the word,

I take this person's claim to be a feminist with a huge pinch of salt. they are singularly pompous and condescending, when they don't come across as particularly informed or thoughtful. I call GF.

MineKraftCheese · 24/07/2017 15:47

Tried discussing this on social media. Accused of trying to "erase trans stories" or some horse shit. I'm so tired.

AfunaMbatata · 24/07/2017 15:49

What can be done in RL other than emailing MP's? I'm willing to do stuff just have no clue and few resources.

venusinscorpio · 24/07/2017 15:55

Tried discussing this on social media. Accused of trying to "erase trans stories" or some horse shit. I'm so tired.

It's just pure virtue signalling. Maybe share some gender critical trans stuff like Miranda Yardley? Then you can accuse them of erasing trans stories if they object.

Elendon · 24/07/2017 15:56

I have an ultra right wing Conservative as an MP. I wonder what her view would be on this? Note: I can guess without being told that I'm Victorian in my views or a frigid female.

What I can never do is agree with her on this issue - despite the fact that I do). Because, despite me being all for same sex (did I actually bring up sex, as in biological sex?) marriage or abortion rights, I'm a terf for agreeing with her on this one point (and she is very much a right wing woman).

And yet I will write to her again, because she brought up equality laws in the last letter she wrote to me. I'll remind her of that in quotes, gently suggest I'm not happy with this new proposal and agree. All the while this discourse takes place she knows I will never vote for her.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 24/07/2017 15:58

RTFT, 1 thing that is obvious is TERFS, TRA's & MRA's are nutcases cut from the same cloth that use hyperbole and biased articles to try and bully others into conforming to behaviour and ideas that suit their agenda, behaviour feminists attribute to males Hmm go figure

Anlaf · 24/07/2017 15:59

I think we need to organise. There is a facebook group upthread and a couple of threads on here in Feminism Chat. They might be good places to start. I haven't seen any womens' orgs doing anything, really only Transgender Trend

In the meantime, there is now a meta-petition for anyone who's concerned by the earlier petition being deleted

www.change.org/p/38-degrees-38-degrees-stop-silencing-and-censoring-women

Elendon · 24/07/2017 15:59

It's just pure virtue signalling. Maybe share some gender critical trans stuff like Miranda Yardley? Then you can accuse them of erasing trans stories if they object.

I've tried that. It doesn't work. People like Miranda are considered terfs as well. Miranda, it seems, is too much like a woman (much respect and love Miranda).

venusinscorpio · 24/07/2017 15:59

I see Samoyed's point that obviously committing a sex offence will still be illegal... BUT at the moment a man (or men) can't enter a woman only space. If legislation goes through, then they can . And as others have said, what constitutes a sex offence? It's not just violent rape. It is offensive behaviour too, such as staring or exhibitionism, which would be difficult to report let alone prove.

Yes, this. But that poster doesn't care about women's rights. They arrogantly dismiss all our concerns. They know all the answers. It's pointless expecting them to be reasonable or listen to reason.

VestalVirgin · 24/07/2017 16:00

What can be done in RL other than emailing MP's? I'm willing to do stuff just have no clue and few resources.

Talking to people and finding out who is still sane and who has drunk the gender Kool Aid, I think. Perhaps you can get some more people to sign the Change.org petition, or write to their MPs. (You could print a letter they can sign and send to MPs, people are much more willing to do stuff if they have to do less work)

Sooner or later, there will be women needed to establish women's shelters that are actually for women, women who organize sport events for girls and women, et cetera.
(I hope this can be avoided, but things look very bleak indeed)

Elendon · 24/07/2017 16:01

I am not a TERF. JustAnother

Blistory · 24/07/2017 16:02

Should a campaign expressing a legitimate opinion be ended because of the actions of a small minority?

This week’s events raised some important questions about how to stop a small minority undermine participatory digital campaigning for the rest of us. I’m sure that there will be lots of suggestions for how we can improve our response in the future. But I know that the office team, and Joe the petition starter, are definitely glad we decided to take some kind of stand against sexist bullying.

The above quotes were taken from David Bates' response when 38 Degrees took down a petition that contributed towards the online bullying of the BBC's Laura Kuenssberg last year. Despite utterly vile online trolling, 38 Degrees still took the time and mental energy to consider the correct approach before consulting with the petition starter and asking them if they agreed with the petition being removed. All the while, blatantly sexist shit was being posted about a female reporter for the world to see.

Funny how there appears to have been no such considered approach to this one. No hand wringing, no considering who the minority is who is doing the shutting down. No considering that women's fear is a very real thing. Participation in democracy remains very much about the men and for the men.

MineKraftCheese · 24/07/2017 16:02

@Datun "The Women's Equality Party have a fully drunk the Kool-Aid. They were on a web chat and asked to define the word woman, that makes up the title of their party.

They refused. "

This made me shed a tear. I'm not exaggerating when I say that this gender identity law stuff and trans activists have exacerbated my depression hugely. I feel like my brain must be broken.

LadyinCement · 24/07/2017 16:02

I think this needs to reach a wider audience. I am not an active feminist (not an active anything, actually, except perhaps an active couch potato...) but this issue has me really riled. I am quite sure that many, many women from all walks of life, age and class would unite to prevent their hard-won rights being eroded. Eroded by a tiny group of people who may well be marginalised and feel hard done by, but vocal enough to bamboozle the government into riding roughshod over common sense.

LadyinCement · 24/07/2017 16:07

I was just familiarising myself with the North Caroline bathroom debacle, and I just can't understand it. Pop stars etc all jumping on the bandwagon and roaring about intolerance and "I won't play North Carolina" blah de blah.

But I don't want men in public restrooms. If I saw a man dressed as a woman in the restrooms, well, so be it. I understand their problem. But no man dressed as a man who at that moment is feeling like a woman, thank you very much.

sticklebrix · 24/07/2017 16:10

It's pointless expecting them to be reasonable or listen to reason.

Venus I'm less pessimistic. Many MN posters have been deconverted once they realise what self ID actually means in practise for the women they are and know.

Objectively, the facts, statistics, science, experience, history are all on our side. I think (hope) that this will eventually count for something with many people if we present them repeatedly and calmly. Time is our biggest enemy at this point WRT new legislation.

venusinscorpio · 24/07/2017 16:10

This made me shed a tear. I'm not exaggerating when I say that this gender identity law stuff and trans activists have exacerbated my depression hugely. I feel like my brain must be broken.

I can totally sympathise. I don't have full on depression but I have wept over this. It's so unjust.

StatelessPrincess · 24/07/2017 16:13

Posting the link to this petition again as I don't know if anyone saw it. I don't think they have used the best arguments but it does have over 11,000 signatures now.

www.citizengo.org/en-gb/pc/41304-say-not-dangerous-gender-identity-bill

Gran22 · 24/07/2017 16:16

Just reading about Andraya Yearwood, the 15 year old new Sprint star in Connecticut. Winning the female races can't be too hard for someone with male anatomy. I'm getting old, I don't see how this can possibly be fair!

VestalVirgin · 24/07/2017 16:21

This made me shed a tear. I'm not exaggerating when I say that this gender identity law stuff and trans activists have exacerbated my depression hugely. I feel like my brain must be broken.

No wonder. Let's hope doing something against it will help you recover.

And science still wonders why women are more likely than men to suffer from depression. Yeah, how fucking mysterious. Not. Hmm

Anlaf · 24/07/2017 16:21

The responses to Maria Miller's tweet (scroll down for non tweeters) on this might be a little heartening

twitter.com/MariaMillerUK/status/889392423813644288

SummerKelly · 24/07/2017 16:23

I think the Sarah Ditum article is helpful in that it points out some areas for us to concentrate on. I think it's also helpful in terms of language - we are for protecting women's rights rather than being against something. I hate to give up on the whole thing but do we want to draw up a list of the areas we are most concerned about, e.g. healthcare, domestic violence etc. services and stats, and also demands about how they will address the issue of vexatious individuals?

Someone on my FB feed posted something this morning about bigotry in the media. There were a couple of supportive comments but other than that I notice it got no likes. The silence speaks louder than words....

LadyinCement · 24/07/2017 16:24

It's mildly interesting to think what our society may look like in twenty years' time. Presumably there will be no separate sports, and therefore fewer women competitors. Otoh perhaps being useless at sport will be a protected characteristic, and those with two left feet will be given a head start halfway down the track.

AssignedMentalAtBirth · 24/07/2017 16:36

Venus
"They arrogantly dismiss all our concerns."

Yes and then complain when we don't play like nice girls and produce 'nuanced' posts for them. Fuck that shit

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