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Gender Self Identity Law coming! MNQH and Mumsnetters: Time to pick a side

999 replies

AssignedMentalAtBirth · 23/07/2017 10:09

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40692782

This is going to happen unless we speak out now.

Other thread in feminist chat

Fence sitters everywhere, please read, be aware of what is coming

From the Times:
Tories promote the right to choose your own sex
Transgender reforms for birth certificates
Adults will be able to change their gender legally without a doctor’s diagnosis under government plans that will transform British society.
Men will be able to identify themselves as women — and women as men — and have their birth certificates altered to record their new gender.
Ministers plan to tear up the existing rules that mean people have to live for two years as their desired gender before they can officially change sex.
A consultation on the Gender Recognition Bill, to be published in the autumn, will also include proposals to scrap the requirement that people get a formal medical diagnosis of “gender dysphoria” before applying to switch gender.
Critics warned that allowing people in effect to “self-identify” as a member of the opposite sex, while maintaining the anatomy of their birth gender, would unleash a firestorm of legal cases over access to women-only hospital wards, prisons, lavatories, changing rooms and competitive sports.
Justine Greening, the minister for women and equalities, called the move to give more rights to transgender people the third great “step forward” after equality for women and the legalisation of same-sex marriage in 2013.
The announcement is timed to coincide with the 50th anniversary of the partial decriminalisation of homosexuality in 1967. Greening said ministers want to “streamline and demedicalise” gender change to make it easier for people to switch their identity legally.
In future people are expected to be required only to make a statutory declaration that they intend to live in the acquired gender until death — in line with arrangements already adopted in Ireland.
The consultation will address whether those whose gender is “non-binary” should also be able to define themselves as “X” on their birth certificates.
A separate consultation in Scotland will go further than England and Wales by recommending that “non-binary” people should be able to define themselves as “X” on passports. It will also propose a cut in the age at which people can change their gender from 18 to 16.
The plans will be controversial. Prominent feminists including Germaine Greer and Dame Jenni Murray, the presenter of Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour, have questioned whether men can become women even if they undergo a sex-change operation.
Stephanie Davies-Arai of Transgender Trend, a parents’ group, said: “This has huge implications for women. There will be legal cases. The most worrying thing is if any man can identify as a woman with no tests and gain access to spaces where women might be getting undressed or feel vulnerable — like women’s hospital wards, refuges and rape crisis centres — women will just stop going to these facilities.”
Self-identifying was recommended by a parliamentary committee last year chaired by the former cabinet minister Maria Miller and it has the backing of Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn.
Greening also announced the government will make it easier for gay men to give blood. At the moment men who have had sexual contact with other men are barred from donating for 12 months. That will be reduced to three months.

Ministers will launch a national survey of Britain’s estimated 1.5m LGBT people to help inform policy.
The education department has also announced £3m will be spent on “anti-homophobic and transphobic programmes”. Schools, including faith schools, will be required to include LGBT issues in relationships and sex education.
Greening, who is in a relationship with a woman, said: “This government is committed to building an inclusive society that works for everyone, no matter what their gender or sexuality.
“We will build on the significant progress we have made over the past 50 years, tackling some of the historic prejudices that still persist in our laws and giving LGBT people a real say on the issues affecting them.”
Ruth Hunt, chief executive of Stonewall, the lobbying organisation, welcomed the plans. “We need a simple process which isn’t medicalised, intrusive or demeaning,” she said.
The move will put the government on a collision course with some religious groups. Simon Calvert of the Christian Institute said: “It is worrying when the leaders of the main political parties are so out of touch with the concerns of ordinary people.
“Allowing men to self-identify as female without any medical diagnosis allows them to invade the privacy of women and girls.
“It’s time for a reality check. Some things can’t be changed. May and Corbyn want to elevate the principle of ‘gender self-declaration’. But it is wrong, it is anti-scientific and it is dangerous.”
A source who is close to Greening acknowledged that the proposed changes could be problematic. “That’s why we are going to have a consultation, so we can examine all the implications,” the source said.
A Scottish government spokeswoman said it hopes to have “new arrangements in place by 2020”.

OP posts:
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SamoyedSam · 24/07/2017 14:44

@Datun in the first 4 pages there were comments along the mentally ill line.

SerfTerf · 24/07/2017 14:44

A situation where a self-declared trans person assaults a woman or anyone else in a female-only space? There is a law against sexual assault. Yep, folk will come back saying that “the police won’t be able/bothered to investigate/prosecute etc.”…well that is potentially true of any kind of assault.

Prosecution doesn't UNDO a traumatic assault.

GladAllOver · 24/07/2017 14:44

I do not think in principle these will take rights away from women and girls.
A situation where a self-declared trans person enters a female toilet and goes peeping-Tom (or Thomasina)? There is a law against voyeurism.

SamoyedSam · 24/07/2017 14:44

TL;DR was meant about MY post!

sticklebrix · 24/07/2017 14:45

Samoyed I am on the other side of the argument, but don't like seeing women insult each other either. We can disagree on this topic, but personal insults are not okay. I can see why you find this off-putting. I do too.

Check out terfisaslur.com if you want a flavour of what gender critical women are exposed to elsewhere.

There will likely be incidents where this law is misused and people suffer. I'm sorry to be harsh but that is part of the process of human rights legislation and that's how it moves forward and gets ironed out.

I do think that this particular opinion is chilling. It is not part of the process of human rights legislation at all.

Please read the full thread before responding (if you want to respond).

SamoyedSam · 24/07/2017 14:47

However the responses to me so far have been nuanced and intelligent. All I hoped for. Got to rush out now and see my lawyer about something completed unconnected to any of this ;-) However...I respectfully disagree with people who are against this law. But it doesn't matter - there are so many people on here with the same viewpoint that it's a good thing for all of you to have like-minded folk to discuss it with. What I think doesn't really matter on MN. I'm just glad the flow IRL is along my thinking.

AssignedMentalAtBirth · 24/07/2017 14:47

Stateless

It's just BabychamReincarnated running telling tales about the bad bad mommies on Mumsnet

OP posts:
SamoyedSam · 24/07/2017 14:49

@Assigned Shame you are not as nuanced and intelligent and reasonable on your own thread as others :-)

hackmum · 24/07/2017 14:50

samoyed: "No reams of pages written by prominent feminists and women's rights advocates on why this is so terrible. This literally only seems to be a thing on mumsnet."

A lot of feminists are frightened to speak out. Look at what happened to Jenni Murray when she spoke out in the mildest of possible terms about trasngenderism. A heap of abuse descends. Even the BBC turned against her. Germaine Greer and Julie Bindel have been banned from speaking at student unions because of their position on transgenderism.

The amount of abuse and vitriol on Twitter against feminists who are worried about the extreme views of transgender activists is terrifying.

I noticed in the list of things you said didn't worry about you the bill, you didn't say anything about prisons. That is the biggest worry for me. At the moment, when Ian Huntley says he identifies as a woman he can just be ignored. What happens when this bill is passed? It will be against the law to disregard his self-identification. And then what happens?

Datun · 24/07/2017 14:50

Gender Dysphoria IS currently a mental disorder. ffs

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5) provides for one overarching diagnosis of gender dysphoria with separate specific criteria for children and for adolescents and adults.

www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria

Gender fluidity isn't.

You would be able to get hormones or surgery on the NHS or in America get your insurance company to pay for it if it wasn't. It's not cosmetic surgery.

StatelessPrincess · 24/07/2017 14:50

It's a shame you didn't answer my questions though Samoyed

GladAllOver · 24/07/2017 14:51

Posted too soon.
I do not think in principle these will take rights away from women and girls.
A situation where a self-declared trans person enters a female toilet and goes peeping-Tom (or Thomasina)? There is a law against voyeurism.
The law against voyeurism specifies 'sexual gratification'. So according to you, a man can walk naked around a women's /girls' shower room. And providing he doesn't get an erection he can offend and frighten the women there with impunity. And the staff are powerless to intervene for fear of being prosecuted.
Wonderful!

Datun · 24/07/2017 14:54
  • wouldn't be able to get hormones
PoochSmooch · 24/07/2017 14:54

I have actual chills down my spine reading the message about the petition being removed.

We're not even allowed to disagree.

As the saying goes, if you want to find out who rules over you, find out who you're not allowed to disagree with.

AssignedMentalAtBirth · 24/07/2017 14:57

You are hardly a beacon of Enlightenment Samoyed.

OP posts:
illegitimateMortificadospawn · 24/07/2017 14:57

Otoh I see nothing amusing about finding a bloke in the cubicle next to me in an otherwise deserted public lavatory. I would freak out if it were today, but if it's in a year's time I wouldn't even be able to look horrified and run out as I would be guilty of hurting his feelings.

This is something that puzzles me. We only ever discuss a lone man in the ladies. There is nothing to stop a group of men who have self-identified as female under the proposed new legislation from going into a deserted women's changing room and sexually assaulting or gang-raping a lone woman, if they so wish. They don't even need to have completed the paperwork - even challenging their right to be there will become problematic, as the lone woman could find herself on the wrong side of the law if they have registered. And I am most definitely NOT saying transwomen are sex-offenders, I'm saying male sex offenders will use this sloppy legislation to abuse women, girls and male children in women's facilities. As we have seen in grooming cases, these men will go to great lengths to access victims. This legislation will be a gift to them. Makes you wonder who is really driving this legislation when a number of transwomen have publicly stated that self-identification will harm their interests & safety too. Hmm

GahBuggerit · 24/07/2017 14:58

I'd also love an answer on the Ian Huntley point please:

"At the moment, when Ian Huntley says he identifies as a woman he can just be ignored. What happens when this bill is passed? It will be against the law to disregard his self-identification. And then what happens?"

While we're at it might as well let us know the views on that Danielle Muscato who's taking up a women's space in a refuge inviting women to suck his female penis if we refuse to believe in such a thing as a lady-dick. Views on that please?

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 24/07/2017 14:59

He could also walk clothed round the shower room WITH an erection, because he could argue he's there for legitimate reasons and the erection is just something that happens. It would be hard to prove someone was staring at you if they're allowed to be in the space anyway.

Having been the victim of a peeping tom in a changing room once I think some people are quite naive about how much this is likely to happen and how hard it will be to combat. I'm thinking of what we can do to protect ourselves once self-id goes ahead - sort of metaphorical equivalent of wearing modesty shorts. For a start I think we will need to campaign for floor to ceiling cubicles.
We will also need signs in all swimming pool showers about not showering naked because there will always be men playing innocent and making out they thought it was normal.

The problem will be that if you do report someone staring/being exhibitionist, you will be in danger of him making a counter-accusation of transphobia.

PoochSmooch · 24/07/2017 15:00

What about sports then, samoyed?

If you have the papers to hand on how self identifying as a woman changes male biomechanics to female ones and lowers a man's VO2 max into the female range, I'd love to see them. Otherwise, I will be sticking to my line that allowing male bodies into female sports is flat out wrong, no matter whose feelings are hurt by that.

Datun · 24/07/2017 15:00

PoochSmooch

Me too. Anyone reading this thread is in any doubt about what happens, go anywhere on social media and tell a transactivist you agree with everything to do with transgender. List things you agree with -transwomen are women, they should enter women's spaces, etc, etc.

Then disagree with one thing. Maybe suggest that lesbians have a point when they say they don't want to sleep with someone with a penis.

Just try it.

sticklebrix · 24/07/2017 15:01

We only ever discuss a lone man in the ladies. There is nothing to stop a group of men

Bloody hell. I had genuinely never considered this.

VestalVirgin · 24/07/2017 15:01

We are being silenced. That is quite obvious.

I think going from door to door with an actual piece of paper might be more successful - for one, you also get women who haven't heard of this crap yet, also, you are not dependent on some misogynist online site.

Of course it'd be very dangerous to actually, physically put yourself out there.

And I don't know whether this will stop when the transwacktivists start murdering feminists. They might well already have done so, without us knowing about it, as the press only reluctantly reports such incidents, if at all.

Anlaf · 24/07/2017 15:03

As the saying goes, if you want to find out who rules over you, find out who you're not allowed to disagree with.

This is chilling isn't it.

I'm currently building up to talking about this in public and am preparing for the onslaught. I have quite a public job and am worried about the impact speaking up will have on being invited for conferences and the like

Anlaf · 24/07/2017 15:05

BTW agree door to door activism can be successful. I wonder if the Womens' Equality Party will be advocating on this

Datun · 24/07/2017 15:05

We only ever discuss a lone man in the ladies. There is nothing to stop a group of men

Or a rowdy bunch of lads up for a laugh. Pissing around with the Tampax machine and pretending to do their hair in the mirror.

Or a bunch of 13-year-olds doing a dare, double dare.

Fuck all you can do.