Gender Self Identity Law coming! MNQH and Mumsnetters: Time to pick a side

[AssignedMentalAtBirth]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40692782

This is going to happen unless we speak out now.

Other thread in feminist chat

Fence sitters everywhere, please read, be aware of what is coming

From the Times:
Tories promote the right to choose your own sex
Transgender reforms for birth certificates
Adults will be able to change their gender legally without a doctor’s diagnosis under government plans that will transform British society.
Men will be able to identify themselves as women — and women as men — and have their birth certificates altered to record their new gender.
Ministers plan to tear up the existing rules that mean people have to live for two years as their desired gender before they can officially change sex.
A consultation on the Gender Recognition Bill, to be published in the autumn, will also include proposals to scrap the requirement that people get a formal medical diagnosis of “gender dysphoria” before applying to switch gender.
Critics warned that allowing people in effect to “self-identify” as a member of the opposite sex, while maintaining the anatomy of their birth gender, would unleash a firestorm of legal cases over access to women-only hospital wards, prisons, lavatories, changing rooms and competitive sports.
Justine Greening, the minister for women and equalities, called the move to give more rights to transgender people the third great “step forward” after equality for women and the legalisation of same-sex marriage in 2013.
The announcement is timed to coincide with the 50th anniversary of the partial decriminalisation of homosexuality in 1967. Greening said ministers want to “streamline and demedicalise” gender change to make it easier for people to switch their identity legally.
In future people are expected to be required only to make a statutory declaration that they intend to live in the acquired gender until death — in line with arrangements already adopted in Ireland.
The consultation will address whether those whose gender is “non-binary” should also be able to define themselves as “X” on their birth certificates.
A separate consultation in Scotland will go further than England and Wales by recommending that “non-binary” people should be able to define themselves as “X” on passports. It will also propose a cut in the age at which people can change their gender from 18 to 16.
The plans will be controversial. Prominent feminists including Germaine Greer and Dame Jenni Murray, the presenter of Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour, have questioned whether men can become women even if they undergo a sex-change operation.
Stephanie Davies-Arai of Transgender Trend, a parents’ group, said: “This has huge implications for women. There will be legal cases. The most worrying thing is if any man can identify as a woman with no tests and gain access to spaces where women might be getting undressed or feel vulnerable — like women’s hospital wards, refuges and rape crisis centres — women will just stop going to these facilities.”
Self-identifying was recommended by a parliamentary committee last year chaired by the former cabinet minister Maria Miller and it has the backing of Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn.
Greening also announced the government will make it easier for gay men to give blood. At the moment men who have had sexual contact with other men are barred from donating for 12 months. That will be reduced to three months.

Ministers will launch a national survey of Britain’s estimated 1.5m LGBT people to help inform policy.
The education department has also announced £3m will be spent on “anti-homophobic and transphobic programmes”. Schools, including faith schools, will be required to include LGBT issues in relationships and sex education.
Greening, who is in a relationship with a woman, said: “This government is committed to building an inclusive society that works for everyone, no matter what their gender or sexuality.
“We will build on the significant progress we have made over the past 50 years, tackling some of the historic prejudices that still persist in our laws and giving LGBT people a real say on the issues affecting them.”
Ruth Hunt, chief executive of Stonewall, the lobbying organisation, welcomed the plans. “We need a simple process which isn’t medicalised, intrusive or demeaning,” she said.
The move will put the government on a collision course with some religious groups. Simon Calvert of the Christian Institute said: “It is worrying when the leaders of the main political parties are so out of touch with the concerns of ordinary people.
“Allowing men to self-identify as female without any medical diagnosis allows them to invade the privacy of women and girls.
“It’s time for a reality check. Some things can’t be changed. May and Corbyn want to elevate the principle of ‘gender self-declaration’. But it is wrong, it is anti-scientific and it is dangerous.”
A source who is close to Greening acknowledged that the proposed changes could be problematic. “That’s why we are going to have a consultation, so we can examine all the implications,” the source said.
A Scottish government spokeswoman said it hopes to have “new arrangements in place by 2020”.

I'm totally in. It's complete nonsense.

Ramping up the feminism in my old age now the kids are a bit more independent. Bring it on....

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/24/dont-make-it-easier-to-change-gender-urge-conservative-activists

Odd that the Guardian chooses that particular straw article isn't it (with the bit about Christian values at the end).

Bloody hell.

I'm still Spartacus... How dare a consultation that may result in a radical change to the right of biological women to privacy and our own very existence as a group be closed to our opinions?

I completely agree with everything in the article but unfortunately it will reaffirm the idea to some people that the only people that are against this are conservative religious people. I am in that category myself but it's not even why I object to this bill. It actually affects everyone, women, children, gay men and women, genuine gender dysphoria sufferers. Even men, because the implication is that if you aren't some stereotypical macho man you might actually be a woman, that it's a simple as that.
I can't believe the petition was deleted...what are we supposed to do about this? Has MNHQ commented yet? If they have I've missed it. I can't understand why they wouldn't be on board.

Today's Times writing on this subject refers to 'cisgender female athletes'.

A female athlete is a 'female athlete'. How the hell is it necessary to give a special name to the vast majority of ordinary people who have retained the natural sex of their birth?

And why are MN still silent on this crucial subject? Where are you?

Surely relatively few female athletes are "cisgender" as "sporty" comes under the male stereotypes?

They'd at least be non-binary or agender?

I wonder if Hadley Freeman/Janice Turner would be interested in fact that petition has been disabled for "inappropriateness"?

Both are (bravely) vocal on Twitter in terms of not toeing the cross-party line on this.

Very angry here. Emailed my MP last week after Jeremy Corbyn's statement and had measured response, but will follow up. There is too much at stake here for women and girls, but also for society at large, to allow such a half-baked, ill-considered proposal into law.

Didn't know April 1st could occur at any time of the year!

I'm really a bit shocked that the petition has been removed. People are going to disagree with us, and that's fine, but stopping us from voicing our dissent really isn't.

I haven't been involved in political activism since I was a teenager, but this angers me enough that I want to do something about it. We're being silenced. The trouble is that I don't know what to do. I'm a mature student and my university has a feminist society but it's deep down the rabbit hole in terms of 'centering trans people's experiences' and having a 'non-binary officer' (who is a woman who presents in a typically feminine way but is...identifying out of oppression, I guess?). So that won't help. No political party is going to take up the issue.

I agree with the poster upthread who said that we might need direct action - but so many women aren't comfortable with sharing their views offline because of the very real backlash and harassment by a minority of transactivists.

I've been given permission to share this: the message 38 Degrees sent the petition creator.

Dear XX, I’m afraid your petition is inappropriate for this website. The 38 Degrees team have reviewed the petition and whilst we absolutely understand the need to create safe spaces for all genders, we believe that this petition plays a lot on fear and discriminates against trans women and therefore breaks our terms and conditions. Obviously we all hope that the government give full consideration to any new laws brought in, but we believe this petition attempts to play off the rights of one vulnerable minority group against the rights of another group. As such we are not happy to host this petition 38 Degrees is independent of all political parties, and upholds values of freedom, democracy, peace, human rights, community, equality, fairness and sustainability. We reserve the right to remove any campaigns or comments that do not share these principles. We reserve the right to remove any petition which we judge to promote illegal acts, hatred, violence, discrimination or stereotypes based on race, gender, ethnicity, sexuality, disability, nationality or religion.

I’m a recent mumsnetter ( < than a year); spent years thinking this was a site I couldn’t really be bothered with due to my perceptions of the demographic, then bothered to actually come on here and was pleasantly surprised. Over the last 10 months I’ve been entertained by threads such as Pom Bears, impressed by the support offered to folk with problems, pleased to see the take-downs of views that I’ve disagreed with and surprised to see the support for views I’ve found to be bonkers. All par for course for a site like this.

I haven’t RT full FT. I didn’t get past around 400 posts, but after seeing @BabychamSocialist (a self-declared feminist with a politely expressed point of view) being called a traitor to women and girls I kind of realised the futility of it.

FWIW, I am in favour of the direction the debate is taking in law and in public life outside of MN. I am against discrimination faced by transgender people and pleased to see rights extended to marginalised groups.
I do not think in principle these will take rights away from women and girls.
A situation where a self-declared trans person enters a female toilet and goes peeping-Tom (or Thomasina)? There is a law against voyeurism.

A situation where a self-declared trans person assaults a woman or anyone else in a female-only space? There is a law against sexual assault. Yep, folk will come back saying that “the police won’t be able/bothered to investigate/prosecute etc.”…well that is potentially true of any kind of assault.

Situations where a totally male presenting person seems to be aping transgenderism to commit crimes? Well anyone can self identify as “liking children and wanting to help them”. Including child abusers. So a child abuser applies to a fostering agency in order to commit crimes. There are checks and balances in that situation and likewise will be in this one, especially as time goes by and the implications of the laws start to show.

A situation where Jo – a 6 foot rugby player with a penis who presents as totally male but nefariously self-identifies as female to gain access to a job at a rape centre? Well…there is this thing called THE INTERVIEW PROCESS….you know, where the people in charge of the job put you in a room and work out whether you’re a fantastic fit for the job, a creepy weirdo nut job or anything in between. Jo wasn’t the right fit for the job. End of. Nothing to do with how she self-identifies.

The problem with this thread is that there may be people on it with a nuanced view as expressed in this report (and one I agree with in part – we DO have to be careful with the practicalities of this legislation, even though I support it in principle).

www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2016/01/26/equality-for-trans-people-must-not-come-at-the-expense-of-wo

But equally there are people calling gender fluidity “mental illness” and denying its existence as a real thing…I guess in the same way that homosexuality used to be considered mental illness….so I suspect I will not get very far with them.

I filled out the form as, although currently with my male DP, I do identify as bisexual. I also put in the comments a link to this thread and a warning that a lot of heterosexual women on this site were planning to infiltrate the thread by “self-declaring” on a thread not intended for them. You do realise the law is not yet in place so you can’t self-identity to fill in this form? You probably haven’t broken the law but you are very much against the spirit of what that form was intended for.

I am willing to consider the point of view of the women who say this is dangerous (unlike the many people on here who will likely call me a traitor!) so I googled “gender self identity law and feminism”. And there is virtually nothing there!!…no reams of pages written by prominent feminists and women's rights advocates on why this is so terrible. This literally only seems to be a thing on mumsnet. The rest of womankind doesn’t seem to be as scared as you all are. If my DD is attacked one day, my first thought in using a crisis centre will be “does it have provisions to help her” not “is there a penis in those skirts”. If a counsellor at a service makes me uncomfortable (and I have MH issues so have used services) I will request another one. If I need a crap in Asda toilets, I’m in there without a second though.

There will likely be incidents where this law is misused and people suffer. I'm sorry to be harsh but that is part of the process of human rights legislation and that's how it moves forward and gets ironed out.

FWIW I do think the majority of you on this thread are transphobic but saying that is vastly different from grabbing my pitchfork and calling you a “traitor” to human rights.

I feel like I will be met with a barrage of abuse not debate and when that happens I'll be sad to come off mumsnet but I probably will. I know you all quite well (as a forum not individuals) and I think I know what the responses will be so you probably don’t even need to bother replying:

a) TL;DR
b) I’m a traitor
c) I’m a dickhead
d) I’m a turkey voting for Xmas
e) ODFOD and don’t bang the door on your way out (or OYF or any other variation.
f) A dignified silence

Oh please. What does safe spaces for all genders mean? And will they host a petition in favour of the Bill? stupid question

Last thing: I keep waiting for MNHQ to come out and support this thread. They haven't. I wonder why?

race, gender, ethnicity, sexuality, disability, nationality or religion.

But not sex!!!!

AND WOMEN ARE NOT A MINORITY

Absolutely disgusted at 38 Degrees. Julie Bindel is another one who might be interested.

The more I think about this, the more pissed off I am at the way they've decided it's not going to affect inheritance laws. Because that shows they've recognised the potential for abuse - that a woman might suddenly think, Aha! all I have to do is identify as a male to claim the title/inheritance that would otherwise go to my younger brother.

I mean, heaven forbid a woman should use it for that purpose, eh?

But when it comes to a violent man abusing it to gain entry to a women's prison or women's refuge, then they're not going to worry about it. Hell, that's only women, and who cares about them?

I'm so upset by this. I live in the C.I. and so can't contact my MP about it though obviously will contact a deputy in the event that this comes up here, which it will. If this goes through on the mainland it will almost certainly be implemented here.

We don't matter. Molestation victims having a man in the changing room with them, DV survivors living cheek to jowl with men in refuges. Lesbians are getting pushed out of their own organisations for daring to stand up and say "no, we don't owe sex to men who identify as women", young female atheletes training their hardest but their race being won by a young male athelete who would be average or poor in the male event.

Men's feelings matter. Ours don't.

'We reserve the right to remove any petition which we judge to promote illegal acts, hatred, violence, discrimination or stereotypes based on race, gender, ethnicity, sexuality, disability, nationality or religion.'

Oh the irony.

Hackmum
Yes it's quite breathtaking isn't it? I have never seen this level of blind sightedness ever.

*Today 12:08 hackmum

Also, it really worries me that Labour are supporting this as well as the Tories. You can bet your last dollar that the Lib Dems and Greens will be supporting it too. Is there any parliamentary party who might be willing to listen to reason?

UKIP probably - but feminists hate them.
The politicians you love are stabbing you in the back, you are totally on your own politically.

The petition being removed feels particularly Orwellian.

Samoyed Nobody has said people with ''gender fluidity'' are mentally ill. Gender and sex are not the same thing.
Why do you think that heterosexual women shouldn't be allowed a say, don't you believe in freedom of speech?
Do you think that biological men should be allowed to compete against women in sports?
Do you think that a women should have to forgo medical treatment if she requests a female doctor and is given a biological man who identifies as a woman?
Do you think children should be given medication that will permanently affect their general health and reproductive systems?

I'm not transphobic. I do not have a phobia of trans people. I believe they should have rights and I believe they already do.

SamoyedSam

You say you haven't read the full thread. That's quite clear. When the things you say won't happen clearly already have. Fully documented. Plus there are at least three other similar threads running currently on this very site.

Not sure why you haven't managed to find any feminist articles about trans and self identification, I have personally read hundreds.

There is also a lot of information out there about the damage to children of puberty blockers, particularly Lupron. You might want to google them.

Perhaps they've been taken down. Silencing women seems to be the order of the day.

I currently have 15 tabs open on my phone, all of which are linked to feminist sites talking about this very subject and linking blogs, articles, MSM, etc.

So yeah, TL:DR is irresponsible and no excuse for being uninformed.