Gender Self Identity Law coming! MNQH and Mumsnetters: Time to pick a side

[AssignedMentalAtBirth]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40692782

This is going to happen unless we speak out now.

Other thread in feminist chat

Fence sitters everywhere, please read, be aware of what is coming

From the Times:
Tories promote the right to choose your own sex
Transgender reforms for birth certificates
Adults will be able to change their gender legally without a doctor’s diagnosis under government plans that will transform British society.
Men will be able to identify themselves as women — and women as men — and have their birth certificates altered to record their new gender.
Ministers plan to tear up the existing rules that mean people have to live for two years as their desired gender before they can officially change sex.
A consultation on the Gender Recognition Bill, to be published in the autumn, will also include proposals to scrap the requirement that people get a formal medical diagnosis of “gender dysphoria” before applying to switch gender.
Critics warned that allowing people in effect to “self-identify” as a member of the opposite sex, while maintaining the anatomy of their birth gender, would unleash a firestorm of legal cases over access to women-only hospital wards, prisons, lavatories, changing rooms and competitive sports.
Justine Greening, the minister for women and equalities, called the move to give more rights to transgender people the third great “step forward” after equality for women and the legalisation of same-sex marriage in 2013.
The announcement is timed to coincide with the 50th anniversary of the partial decriminalisation of homosexuality in 1967. Greening said ministers want to “streamline and demedicalise” gender change to make it easier for people to switch their identity legally.
In future people are expected to be required only to make a statutory declaration that they intend to live in the acquired gender until death — in line with arrangements already adopted in Ireland.
The consultation will address whether those whose gender is “non-binary” should also be able to define themselves as “X” on their birth certificates.
A separate consultation in Scotland will go further than England and Wales by recommending that “non-binary” people should be able to define themselves as “X” on passports. It will also propose a cut in the age at which people can change their gender from 18 to 16.
The plans will be controversial. Prominent feminists including Germaine Greer and Dame Jenni Murray, the presenter of Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour, have questioned whether men can become women even if they undergo a sex-change operation.
Stephanie Davies-Arai of Transgender Trend, a parents’ group, said: “This has huge implications for women. There will be legal cases. The most worrying thing is if any man can identify as a woman with no tests and gain access to spaces where women might be getting undressed or feel vulnerable — like women’s hospital wards, refuges and rape crisis centres — women will just stop going to these facilities.”
Self-identifying was recommended by a parliamentary committee last year chaired by the former cabinet minister Maria Miller and it has the backing of Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn.
Greening also announced the government will make it easier for gay men to give blood. At the moment men who have had sexual contact with other men are barred from donating for 12 months. That will be reduced to three months.

Ministers will launch a national survey of Britain’s estimated 1.5m LGBT people to help inform policy.
The education department has also announced £3m will be spent on “anti-homophobic and transphobic programmes”. Schools, including faith schools, will be required to include LGBT issues in relationships and sex education.
Greening, who is in a relationship with a woman, said: “This government is committed to building an inclusive society that works for everyone, no matter what their gender or sexuality.
“We will build on the significant progress we have made over the past 50 years, tackling some of the historic prejudices that still persist in our laws and giving LGBT people a real say on the issues affecting them.”
Ruth Hunt, chief executive of Stonewall, the lobbying organisation, welcomed the plans. “We need a simple process which isn’t medicalised, intrusive or demeaning,” she said.
The move will put the government on a collision course with some religious groups. Simon Calvert of the Christian Institute said: “It is worrying when the leaders of the main political parties are so out of touch with the concerns of ordinary people.
“Allowing men to self-identify as female without any medical diagnosis allows them to invade the privacy of women and girls.
“It’s time for a reality check. Some things can’t be changed. May and Corbyn want to elevate the principle of ‘gender self-declaration’. But it is wrong, it is anti-scientific and it is dangerous.”
A source who is close to Greening acknowledged that the proposed changes could be problematic. “That’s why we are going to have a consultation, so we can examine all the implications,” the source said.
A Scottish government spokeswoman said it hopes to have “new arrangements in place by 2020”.

Very public spirited of you balanootesh

VestalVirgin

I wasn't talking about terfs or even those who have thought in depth about the issue. I just feel like there is a general pressure on people to accept this and if they don't they are a bigot. Being labelled a bigot is the modern day version of being labelled a witch.

No wonder young people are bloody confused, and suffer anxiety, and depression. Too much over thinking and analysing everything.

I know!! It's all so negative with so much focus on the potentially problematic and what's 'wrong'.

Assuming we're both talking about identity politics and not the current discussion there gottaget

formerbabe my point was that those who have not thought about it do use the term "terf" rather than "bigot", thus revealing how little thought exactly they have given to it.

And I think "terf" is the equivalent term to "witch" - mostly applied to women, whom they admit they want to burn. The parallels are obvious.

If they said "bigot" one could at least give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they haven't seen what the TRAs say online, but my impression is that most of the handmaidens have seen the vile misogyny and happily go with it.

Admittedly, as a feminist, I only meet people who are firmly on the side of common sense OR disgusting handmaidens who worship the almighty penis and hate "terfs" without asking for a moment what that actually means.

Perhaps in the general UK population there's more people who say "bigot", but that's not my experience. (I'm in Germany, most people haven't even heard of the transnonsense, but those who have are split up in misogynists who hate "terfs", and sensible feminists who don't want males in women's spaces.)

When I've tried to discuss this issue irl I've been met by looks of horror at the thought of the challenging of this and meaningless platitudes that read like an inspirational meme...

It's brainwashing and propaganda

I have though about it a lot. I have read many threads on here about the issue. I am very flexible in thinking about things and often change my mind when faced with new information or good arguments.

I still feel there is plenty of room for trans women to be women. And trans men to be men. I feel it is a private issue for them and not for us to judge or feel threatened by. People accusing them of waving their penises at little girls upsets me as no trans person would do that, only a criminal. I see all the argumemts, except maybe the sports one, on here constantly going back to violent criminals who in my book are not in any way linked to the trans people that law is trying to protect.

I just needed to let you know that not quite everyone thinks like the people on this thread in case there are other people who feel like me or any trans people who are devestated reading these posts.

Is there any difference between saying I identify as... And I believe I am...? I can't see it. So we're basing laws on individuals beliefs about what they are. So why does this just affect sex? I'd I feel I'm 10 years old, shouldn't society accept that am male accommodation for me? Of course objectively I'm not. There is sound evidence. As there is sound evidence that if your chromosomes are xx you can't become xy. And vice versa. No matter how many hormones and how much surgery. Bodies get dug up after hundreds of years and we can determine what sex they were. That will still be the case. Regardless of birth certificates or gender id.

This whole thing is back to front.

I'm female, born female.
Do I feel "like a woman"? What does that even mean?
How does my "feeling" compare to yours?

Surely instead of saying "men who feel like woman MUST BE women"
surely society should be saying Men can feel however they like and still be men.
You have the right to cry at soppy films and still be considered a man.
Knowing how a car engine works isn't something that makes you male.

This whole movement might purport to be about blurring lines between the genders but it's actually doing the opposite.
If you don't conform to society's Normal man stereotype, you must , ergo, be a woman.
Wear a dress, call yourself Ethel, but still be a man

Why do people not get this simple bit:
It is already possible to legally (if not actually, obv) change sex. Birth certificates can already be changed, transpeople can dress however, marry whoever, etc etc, and they are ALREADY PROTECTED AGAINST DISCRIMINATION BY EXISTING LAWS

The "gatekeeping" protects transsexuals as much as it protects women.

And hey, I might disagree with existing laws (as it is not possible to change sex), but that doesn't mean you have to blindly walk into worse laws because someone tells you it's "progressive" and I'm on "the wrong side of history". And you wouldn't walk to be associated with big ugly terfs like me...

People accusing them of waving their penises at little girls upsets me as no trans person would do that, only a criminal.

They are not separate categories.

You could easily say: WPeople accusing men of waving their penises at little girls upsets me as no man would do that, only a criminal."

The fact is, women need protection from men because they are more likely to be violent and to target women, due to sexism in society. MTF trans are still men. Therefore the same rules apply.

It is not stating that all trans are criminals, just like keeping men out of women's shelters isn't stating all men are criminals. It's the possibility of it.

sausage no matter what your personal views and where you think the line is (you mentioned sport). The lines are being removed wholesale, no grey areas, without any real discussion about the implications. Enforced Major change without discussion should be a concern no matter what the topic.

Yes people talk about penises being waved about but that's because not all transwomen are dysphoric about their bodies. Most won't have surgery. There is a variety of reasons for this but an increasing number feel it is transphobic to require surgery or for them not to be out and proud with their male anatomy.

Also, there are more sexual offenders than there are trans people so yes I am concerned that this larger group will use these badly defined laws to their advantage.

I've not taken a huge amount of notice of the trans issue to date but this is quite concerning. I assume that the vast majority of people who wish to change their gender do so because they are desperately unhappy and feel they are in the wrong body, not because they want to look at young girls in changing rooms, but if anyone can declare themselves on a whim there is a risk that a small number could do so for nefarious purposes and erode women's safe spaces.

Between January and March 2014, this document says there were 77 applications for gender recognition certificates in the UK. This suggests about 200 people a year so a very tiny fraction of the population.

Honestly Sausage, you are deluding yourself. There is no logical path to saying that transwomen are women. None. It's nonsense. I get that you want to be nice and 'inclusive', but for the love of God, give yourself a shake, apply reason and add science to your thoughts.

GhostsToMonsoon: "if anyone can declare themselves on a whim there is a risk that a small number could do so for nefarious purposes and erode women's safe spaces."

It wouldn't have to be a small number. I think the big risk here is when violent male prisoners cotton on to the fact that they could have a much cushier number in a women's prison and have access to potential victims to boot. Also, of course, men who aren't particularly successful in male sports deciding they'd prefer to compete as women. If you no longer need to have surgery or hormones to identify as female, what's to stop you?

I think a lot of people really haven't cottoned on to the implications of this. As well as writing to MPs and so on, I think it's worth using the comments sections below online articles to talk through the implications and use examples of what's happened elsewhere (e.g. the rapes in Australian women's prisons, the male-to-female boxer etc)

YoureNotASausage

Some trans people just want to get on with it, under the radar. And they are as appalled by these new laws and the transactivists' ever more ludicrous claims as anyone else.

Those with autogynephilia will definitely be getting off on occupying women's spaces.

If anyone can let me know how to tell the difference between a pervert, a paedophile, an autogynephile, a harmless transwoman or indeed any harmless man, I'd be delighted to hear it.

Meanwhile 98% percent of sexually violent crimes are committed by people with a penis. As soon those statistics change, I'll no longer be concerned about being in an enclosed space with a strange man while I'm getting undressed.

If transactivists put even a fraction of their time and money into the fight against male violence, which affects both them and us, we might get somewhere.

Agree that to some people it does seem luffly and fluffy and nice and kind and all those things that we are supposed to be aspiring to.

But you only have to think for a second to see that it is a big glowing red light for sexual predators and opportunists. I mentioned upthread that Ian Huntley has now said he feels like a woman - oh, and therefore can he now be transferred to a woman's prison please. Transactivists have already stated that it is not acceptable to be in separate transgender accommodation in prisons, they want to be in the women's section.

I just simply don't understand why safety is of secondary consideration to someone's perceived injured feelings.

Transwomen are male. If they were female, they would be ciswomen. Therefore, why are males allowed in female spaces? Take your phony ideas about gender out of it, and go back to basics.

I hate using the term cis btw, but for the purposes of this thread....

I'll never understand how a TRA can turn around to me and tell me I am "cis" - no matter how I self-identify - because "Your gender identity matches your birth sex" (no, it doesn't), and "it's the literal definition of cis".

But theb they lose their shit if you call a transwoman a man because "the literal definition of man is an adult human male."

Hypocrites.

I just simply don't understand why safety is of secondary consideration to someone's perceived injured feelings.

Oh, it is easy.

I just simply don't understand why WOMEN's safety is of secondary consideration to MEN's perceived injured feelings.

Patriarchy.

It is a pattern. Just look at the man in this article: uk.blastingnews.com/opinion/2017/07/in-a-world-full-of-threats-how-far-can-we-go-to-protect-ourselves-001860675.amp.html

Prioritizing his own hurt feelings over a woman's actual life. It is what men have always done, so I am not surprised they do it now, support it, condone it.

The only thing I am disappointed about is that so many women also throw other women under the bus of male feelings.

But what can we do against a self identifying law??? I'm not finding any online petitions, MNHQ is stupidly silent. According to this article on the Independent even Corbyn is calling for self identification too.

Is the only thing to do, to write to our MP? Anything else? Anyone? I can't bear this madness and I am afraid for my daughters as they grow up.

You can be quite sure that it won't work the other way round. If I self-identify as male and walk into (the front of) a mosque I don't think I would be welcomed with open arms. Nor if I rock up at the Vatican to get the priest application form.

Petition

you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/no-to-the-erasure-of-women-and-abolition-of-our-spaces

Is the only thing to do, to write to our MP? Anything else? Anyone?

Watch "Suffragette" and take some inspirations.

Not sure petitions are going to suffice.

A women's march might be needed. But better organize it in secret, as the violent male transactivists are going to want to attack you.

Not sure this can be fought by legal means, really. It has already gone much too far.

Perhaps women going on strike would help. If you can get everyone to participate. It worked in Iceland with regard to other women's rights issues, but Iceland is sparsely populated, not like the UK.