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Gender Self Identity Law coming! MNQH and Mumsnetters: Time to pick a side

999 replies

AssignedMentalAtBirth · 23/07/2017 10:09

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40692782

This is going to happen unless we speak out now.

Other thread in feminist chat

Fence sitters everywhere, please read, be aware of what is coming

From the Times:
Tories promote the right to choose your own sex
Transgender reforms for birth certificates
Adults will be able to change their gender legally without a doctor’s diagnosis under government plans that will transform British society.
Men will be able to identify themselves as women — and women as men — and have their birth certificates altered to record their new gender.
Ministers plan to tear up the existing rules that mean people have to live for two years as their desired gender before they can officially change sex.
A consultation on the Gender Recognition Bill, to be published in the autumn, will also include proposals to scrap the requirement that people get a formal medical diagnosis of “gender dysphoria” before applying to switch gender.
Critics warned that allowing people in effect to “self-identify” as a member of the opposite sex, while maintaining the anatomy of their birth gender, would unleash a firestorm of legal cases over access to women-only hospital wards, prisons, lavatories, changing rooms and competitive sports.
Justine Greening, the minister for women and equalities, called the move to give more rights to transgender people the third great “step forward” after equality for women and the legalisation of same-sex marriage in 2013.
The announcement is timed to coincide with the 50th anniversary of the partial decriminalisation of homosexuality in 1967. Greening said ministers want to “streamline and demedicalise” gender change to make it easier for people to switch their identity legally.
In future people are expected to be required only to make a statutory declaration that they intend to live in the acquired gender until death — in line with arrangements already adopted in Ireland.
The consultation will address whether those whose gender is “non-binary” should also be able to define themselves as “X” on their birth certificates.
A separate consultation in Scotland will go further than England and Wales by recommending that “non-binary” people should be able to define themselves as “X” on passports. It will also propose a cut in the age at which people can change their gender from 18 to 16.
The plans will be controversial. Prominent feminists including Germaine Greer and Dame Jenni Murray, the presenter of Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour, have questioned whether men can become women even if they undergo a sex-change operation.
Stephanie Davies-Arai of Transgender Trend, a parents’ group, said: “This has huge implications for women. There will be legal cases. The most worrying thing is if any man can identify as a woman with no tests and gain access to spaces where women might be getting undressed or feel vulnerable — like women’s hospital wards, refuges and rape crisis centres — women will just stop going to these facilities.”
Self-identifying was recommended by a parliamentary committee last year chaired by the former cabinet minister Maria Miller and it has the backing of Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn.
Greening also announced the government will make it easier for gay men to give blood. At the moment men who have had sexual contact with other men are barred from donating for 12 months. That will be reduced to three months.

Ministers will launch a national survey of Britain’s estimated 1.5m LGBT people to help inform policy.
The education department has also announced £3m will be spent on “anti-homophobic and transphobic programmes”. Schools, including faith schools, will be required to include LGBT issues in relationships and sex education.
Greening, who is in a relationship with a woman, said: “This government is committed to building an inclusive society that works for everyone, no matter what their gender or sexuality.
“We will build on the significant progress we have made over the past 50 years, tackling some of the historic prejudices that still persist in our laws and giving LGBT people a real say on the issues affecting them.”
Ruth Hunt, chief executive of Stonewall, the lobbying organisation, welcomed the plans. “We need a simple process which isn’t medicalised, intrusive or demeaning,” she said.
The move will put the government on a collision course with some religious groups. Simon Calvert of the Christian Institute said: “It is worrying when the leaders of the main political parties are so out of touch with the concerns of ordinary people.
“Allowing men to self-identify as female without any medical diagnosis allows them to invade the privacy of women and girls.
“It’s time for a reality check. Some things can’t be changed. May and Corbyn want to elevate the principle of ‘gender self-declaration’. But it is wrong, it is anti-scientific and it is dangerous.”
A source who is close to Greening acknowledged that the proposed changes could be problematic. “That’s why we are going to have a consultation, so we can examine all the implications,” the source said.
A Scottish government spokeswoman said it hopes to have “new arrangements in place by 2020”.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
sticklebrix · 23/07/2017 20:27

cuirderussie Glad I'm not the only one! It took me a while to recognise that transgender ideology is gender stereotyping by another name and not the same as transsexualism. I really did buy into it for a while.

busyboysmum · 23/07/2017 20:28

Also given the examples above I am interested to know that if as a woman I requested a female doctor and I then got a male with a penis who was identifying as a female doctor would I be within my rights to refuse to have him to examine me or would I then be taken to court for discrimination? The same applies if I was being searched at an airport.

M0stlyBowlingHedgehog · 23/07/2017 20:29

Thank you, IAmEatingaCurry. It really means a lot in this current craziness to have sane transwomen stand up and be counted. FWIW, insofar as I (or anyone) is capable of putting themselves in someone else's shoes, I think it must be incredibly hard to be trans, and I'm sure you face a great deal of genuine prejudice. As I said upthread, I'm right behind you when it comes to general employment rights, rights to go about your daily business without harrassment and without the threat of violence. I'd like to build a society where that was a thing of the past.

But (and I think we're both on the same side here) there are situations where biology matters, and those situations (sports, women's prisons, women's shelters) should remain segregated by sex.

BeyondDrinksAndKnowsThings · 23/07/2017 20:43

I've completed the LGBT survey, thanks for the link Flowers

Sallystyle · 23/07/2017 20:48

I completed the LGBT survey too.

So did my son who is actually gay and can't understand why the T is in LGBT either.

venusinscorpio · 23/07/2017 21:08

I'll be completing it tomorrow. In the spirit of self ID. Some people need to think a bit about what that means.

BeyondDrinksAndKnowsThings · 23/07/2017 21:42

If one identifies as gender fluid, does each gender get to have an opinion?

Lurkedforever1 · 23/07/2017 22:17

IAmEating I really feel for anyone in your position, wanting to just live your life how you choose and instead having it made harder by current trans activists.

You've also opened my eyes to another side. I already knew it was making life harder for anyone like you. But I'd never even considered that the label 'woman' to describe a trans women is actually offensive to someone like you who describes themselves as a trans woman.

Hellothereitsme · 23/07/2017 22:27

I've self identified to complete the survey.

Rumandraisin1 · 23/07/2017 22:30

Also given the examples above I am interested to know that if as a woman I requested a female doctor and I then got a male with a penis who was identifying as a female doctor would I be within my rights to refuse to have him to examine me or would I then be taken to court for discrimination? The same applies if I was being searched at an airport.

I think you would be required to accept them or be refused service (ie not get medical treatment or not be able to fly). These are the issues that need to be properly discussed and women's concerns taken into account. Normally the issues could be debated and solutions found as legislation is drafted but with this issue (primarily affecting women as it does) we are shouted down as bigots and hysterical women whose concerns don't matter.

Regarding body searches, a similar problem is happening in prisons (already) - Male rapists (who haven't had any surgery) are being moved to women's prisons and the female officers are required to do body searches on them because they 'identify' as a woman. Female officers don't want to do it and know the guy is getting off on them being forced to touch him but they required to do it as part of their job.

PlymouthMaid1 · 23/07/2017 22:57

Well my head went over the parapet on fb earlier tonight. All quiet so far. Survey completed as I don't recognise myself as having a gender.

fakenamefornow · 23/07/2017 23:16

However, nobody can or will change my view that trans women are women, trans men are men, non-binary is real and it would be very validating and helpful, especially in work and school situations, to be legally recognised as non-binary.

Just wanted to comment on this. 'Nothing will convince me' really isn't a good way to think. Not just in this debate, but in any debate. It reminds me of an anti-vax friend who says the same , no amount of evidence will change her mind, she actually says these words.

YoureNotASausage · 23/07/2017 23:51

Yes, everyone knows that the criminals trying to take advantage through pretrending to be trans needs to be dealt with, but what has that got to do with trans people???? You don't take away their rights because of such criminals.

The ultimate sticking point that decides this whole issue for people is whether they are capable of seeing a trans woman as a woman or not. I do. So if I requested a woman doc for whatever reason, I'd be fine with a trans woman doc.

AssassinatedBeauty · 23/07/2017 23:58

Even if the trans woman dressed and presented as male and had not had any hormone therapy or any kind of surgery?

StatelessPrincess · 24/07/2017 00:02

YoureNotASausage Who has said they want to take away trans people's rights? Nobody has, they actually do already have rights.
Its about not giving rights to people who will abuse them. Do you actually understand what this bill means? Can you honestly say that you could see some big strapping bloke with a penis and a beard as a women if that's what he claimed to be?

Maryz · 24/07/2017 00:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Maryz · 24/07/2017 00:05

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

venusinscorpio · 24/07/2017 00:10

The ultimate sticking point that decides this whole issue for people is whether they are capable of seeing a trans woman as a woman or not. I do. So if I requested a woman doc for whatever reason, I'd be fine with a trans woman doc.

What anyone who self identifies with no gatekeeping as a woman? Even if they are quite obviously a man? And you might be virtuous and think it doesn't matter because you believe any man who says he is a woman is one, but what about those of us who don't? What about our feelings?

Sparkyduchess · 24/07/2017 00:12

Yes. Women are totally fucked over, yet again.

PovertyPain · 24/07/2017 00:14

If trans activists are demanding the right to be called the other sex, then surely that means that they can no longer be called trans? Does that mean that we can't be accused of being transphobic towards them, because they're now 'women'? Therefore if a real lesbian won't sleep with a, previously known as, trans woman, then said lesbian can't be accused of being a bigot towards them, because the penis owning, previously known as trans woman, is now a 'real' woman? 🤔
My head hurts. 🤕

Slimthistime · 24/07/2017 00:14

Sausage, so Danielle Muscato as your female assigned doctor woukd t worry you? I appreciate your answer may be no,but again with the amount of confusion around what self identification means, I thought it worth asking.

northernruth · 24/07/2017 00:14

Non binary just means your head is so far up your own arse you can't tell what your genitals are.

northernruth · 24/07/2017 00:15

I'd be up for a lobby group. Although, as you can see, I'm not media friendly.........

HelenaDove · 24/07/2017 00:19

Im utterly shocked at the medication being given to children to block puberty. Id never heard of Jazz Jennings before this thread. Horrific. Sad

There are many women out there who are childfree by choice ,absolutely 100% sure they dont want children. But are refused sterilisation. And are told they dont know their own minds.

soapboxqueen · 24/07/2017 00:21

We currently have protections in law based on sex because that is the root of discrimination aimed at women. I seriously doubt any woman has ever been asked how she identifies before she is discriminated against or assaulted.

I appreciate that some people don't think we need protections based on sex but do they think that all women do not want or need these protections?

That women should not have the right to;

  • undress away from males? *choose not to see a penis if she doesn't want to? *choose a female carer if they become sick or disabled. *expect female support in rape crisis centres and DV shelters. *expect not to be locked up in prison with an intact male. *compete in sports against other female bodied athletes.

How do we protect women from discrimination if any gender can become pregnant or breastfeed?

How do we tackle pay inequality when data is meaningless because man/woman could mean anyone?

If I go for a job and the employer is worried about the possibility of maternity leave, will they look at me (a female) and another candidate (transwomen) and decide we have an equal chance of getting pregnant? Or will they know that one of us is male and that it won't be a problem (yes some pass but plenty don't). I won't be able to claim sex discrimination because it won't exist nor gender discrimination because both candidates are the same gender.