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Gender Self Identity Law coming! MNQH and Mumsnetters: Time to pick a side

999 replies

AssignedMentalAtBirth · 23/07/2017 10:09

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40692782

This is going to happen unless we speak out now.

Other thread in feminist chat

Fence sitters everywhere, please read, be aware of what is coming

From the Times:
Tories promote the right to choose your own sex
Transgender reforms for birth certificates
Adults will be able to change their gender legally without a doctor’s diagnosis under government plans that will transform British society.
Men will be able to identify themselves as women — and women as men — and have their birth certificates altered to record their new gender.
Ministers plan to tear up the existing rules that mean people have to live for two years as their desired gender before they can officially change sex.
A consultation on the Gender Recognition Bill, to be published in the autumn, will also include proposals to scrap the requirement that people get a formal medical diagnosis of “gender dysphoria” before applying to switch gender.
Critics warned that allowing people in effect to “self-identify” as a member of the opposite sex, while maintaining the anatomy of their birth gender, would unleash a firestorm of legal cases over access to women-only hospital wards, prisons, lavatories, changing rooms and competitive sports.
Justine Greening, the minister for women and equalities, called the move to give more rights to transgender people the third great “step forward” after equality for women and the legalisation of same-sex marriage in 2013.
The announcement is timed to coincide with the 50th anniversary of the partial decriminalisation of homosexuality in 1967. Greening said ministers want to “streamline and demedicalise” gender change to make it easier for people to switch their identity legally.
In future people are expected to be required only to make a statutory declaration that they intend to live in the acquired gender until death — in line with arrangements already adopted in Ireland.
The consultation will address whether those whose gender is “non-binary” should also be able to define themselves as “X” on their birth certificates.
A separate consultation in Scotland will go further than England and Wales by recommending that “non-binary” people should be able to define themselves as “X” on passports. It will also propose a cut in the age at which people can change their gender from 18 to 16.
The plans will be controversial. Prominent feminists including Germaine Greer and Dame Jenni Murray, the presenter of Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour, have questioned whether men can become women even if they undergo a sex-change operation.
Stephanie Davies-Arai of Transgender Trend, a parents’ group, said: “This has huge implications for women. There will be legal cases. The most worrying thing is if any man can identify as a woman with no tests and gain access to spaces where women might be getting undressed or feel vulnerable — like women’s hospital wards, refuges and rape crisis centres — women will just stop going to these facilities.”
Self-identifying was recommended by a parliamentary committee last year chaired by the former cabinet minister Maria Miller and it has the backing of Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn.
Greening also announced the government will make it easier for gay men to give blood. At the moment men who have had sexual contact with other men are barred from donating for 12 months. That will be reduced to three months.

Ministers will launch a national survey of Britain’s estimated 1.5m LGBT people to help inform policy.
The education department has also announced £3m will be spent on “anti-homophobic and transphobic programmes”. Schools, including faith schools, will be required to include LGBT issues in relationships and sex education.
Greening, who is in a relationship with a woman, said: “This government is committed to building an inclusive society that works for everyone, no matter what their gender or sexuality.
“We will build on the significant progress we have made over the past 50 years, tackling some of the historic prejudices that still persist in our laws and giving LGBT people a real say on the issues affecting them.”
Ruth Hunt, chief executive of Stonewall, the lobbying organisation, welcomed the plans. “We need a simple process which isn’t medicalised, intrusive or demeaning,” she said.
The move will put the government on a collision course with some religious groups. Simon Calvert of the Christian Institute said: “It is worrying when the leaders of the main political parties are so out of touch with the concerns of ordinary people.
“Allowing men to self-identify as female without any medical diagnosis allows them to invade the privacy of women and girls.
“It’s time for a reality check. Some things can’t be changed. May and Corbyn want to elevate the principle of ‘gender self-declaration’. But it is wrong, it is anti-scientific and it is dangerous.”
A source who is close to Greening acknowledged that the proposed changes could be problematic. “That’s why we are going to have a consultation, so we can examine all the implications,” the source said.
A Scottish government spokeswoman said it hopes to have “new arrangements in place by 2020”.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
Lurkedforever1 · 23/07/2017 19:15

If it was about the genuine, tiny minority who have body dysphoria and feel trapped in the wrong body having the right to identify as the opposite sex, then it wouldn't have been done this way.

I hardly think I'm alone in that I'd back a campaign to fight for protection from discrimination, the right to respect and so forth, and crucially the right to an entirely separate space for privacy. But that isn't what this is about is it? It's not about protecting trans people from predatory males, or their right to bodily privacy. Because you don't need to invade women's spaces to achieve that, it's an active choice.

Blame the trans lobby for deciding their rights should trump biological women's rights, not the women who don't just blindly agree.

Hellothereitsme · 23/07/2017 19:15

England women's team is playing Spain's women's team this afternoon. They are doing better than the men's England team has ever done.

Be interesting once self identifying comes in. What happens when a man identifying as a women wants to join the England women's team? Our daughters might as well give up with sport. Not only do they get paid less but now they will be competing for the places with men.

venusinscorpio · 23/07/2017 19:15

I wonder what it will be like when most people officially identify as non binary? How will your special interests be represented?

Datun · 23/07/2017 19:18

Not sure why you're all foaming at the mouths, it's not going to affect you.

Hahaha.

So if it doesn't affect women, logically it won't affect transwomen either. Since they are women.

You have no beef.

SpartacusSaiman · 23/07/2017 19:18

Spartacus, if gender were abolished men would not rape,iftheir predisposition to rape was actually rooted in gender perceptions, rather than their biology. Are you saying men rape because of their biology?

Why men rape is a complicated issue. Lots of things play into it.

SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed · 23/07/2017 19:19

'I'm not sure you can easily tell males and females apart, just by looking at them or hearing them speak'

In the vast, overwhelming majority of cases, yes, you can. The very continuation of the species, and all other species relies on male and female entities being able to identify each other.

claritytobeclear · 23/07/2017 19:19

Perhaps, over the time, men would start to behave better if their oppression of women was abolished and not encourage, and then perhaps women would not feel a need to have privacy from males.

But that'd happen about two hundred years after abolishing gender. In the meantime, we would have sex segregation because everyone would see that it is needed.

Ah, I see we were talking at cross purposes, Vestal. I thought when you were talking about gender being abolished it no longer existed, at all, apart from being a concept relevant to our history. Not that it was simply abolished in law.

cuirderussie · 23/07/2017 19:19

stickle same here. Was a feminist activist in the 90s then drifted away as I was so busy with kids and work and elderly parents (woman stuff!). Couldn't believe what now passes for feminism in this brave new world and I want to SHAKE some of the foolish young women I've met who've tried to silence me on this and called me a bigot.

venusinscorpio · 23/07/2017 19:22

Couldn't believe what now passes for feminism in this brave new world and I want to SHAKE some of the foolish young women I've met who've tried to silence me on this and called me a bigot.

YY me too! But they aren't all young women, some of them should know better.

PoppyPopcorn · 23/07/2017 19:24

I am so, so Cross about this. Even more so since I read a tweet from Paris Lees saying unless you're trans, butt out as it's nothing to do with you.

Utter bullshit. Everyone - regardless of race, sex, sexual preference etc should be free to be who they want to be. Wear what you want, sleep with who you want, do what you like in your spare time. Crack on and be happy.

But sex is a biological fact which cannot be changed. If you're a women who has had a hysterectomy, likes wearing camouflage, sleeping with other women and calling yourself Steve that doesn't make you a man. You're just a woman who doesn't conform to stereotypes and there is NOTHING wrong with that.

Women's Sport and safe spaces are going to cease to exist. This is so wrong and not progressive in the slightest.

SummerKelly · 23/07/2017 19:31

Surely it's going to end up a nightmare for companies too, my (posh, family orientated) gym has communal changing with only two cubicles - it could only take one bepenised person attending regularly to become a nightmare for them. There must be other businesses like this where it would cause problems.

TinyRick · 23/07/2017 19:36

So those of you who believe Transwomen are women.

Do you think they are lesbians and as such female lesbians should be seeing them as actual sexual partners?

Would you be in a sexual relationship with a transman? (If you are het that is..)

catgirl1976 · 23/07/2017 19:39

You'd think transwomen would be disappointed all these laws giving them loads of rights are coming in.

How on earth are they going to feel like actual women when they get laws that work for them not against them and aren't being oppressed and ignored.

It's like they'll be missing out on the whole "being a woman" experience. Being made to feel vulnerable because you are a woman, getting abuse and cat calls in the street, fearing your safety at the hands of men is sadly all part of being a woman.

If you are a transwoman and you get to trump biological women's rights and society bends over backwards to put your needs first and protect you, won't that just feel like erm......being a man?

Soubriquet · 23/07/2017 19:40

I've signed and shared that petition too

Might lose a few friends but ffs my daughter matters more

She deserves to keep her rights that women have fought so bloody hard to get

Daphnedown · 23/07/2017 19:42

Not sure if anyone's posted this yet

www.gov.uk/government/consultations/national-lgbt-survey

Worth contributing if you're L or B

PencilsInSpace · 23/07/2017 19:45

This is from Women Analysing Policy on Women. It was written in response to Maria Miller's trans equality report, which forms the background to this proposed change:
-------
Amending the requirements of the Gender Recognition Act

At present the Gender Recognition Act allows for a transgender person to be granted a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) if they are: over 18, diagnosed with gender dysphoria, have lived as their new gender for 2 years and intend to continue to do so and apply successfully to the Gender Recognition Panel. There is no need for the transgender person to have had surgery or other medical treatment. Once a person has a gender recognition certificate they legally become their ‘acquired gender’.

The Committee recommends that the Gender Recognition Act be changed in line ‘with the principles of self-declaration that have developed in other jurisdictions’ to become an ‘administrative process centred on the wishes of the individual applicant[iii].

It is not clear exactly what this ‘administrative process’ would involve but it is likely to be based on models developed in other countries where all that is required is a signed statement of intent to live permanently as their acquired gender witnessed by a solicitor or commissioner for oaths[iv].

This would means that it would be possible for someone who was born male and had gone through no process of social or medial transition to legally declare themselves to be a woman. There are people who were born male and identify as female but have no wish to transition through surgery, hormones or other medical intervention. Some of these people may choose to present as male, while identifying as female[v]. There are others who identify as both male and female, sometimes presenting as male and sometimes as female.

Since there is no way to tell if someone genuinely identifies as a woman this would include people who were born male, actually identified as a man, but claimed to identify as a woman. Both the British Psychological Society and the British Association of Gender Identity Specialists raised concerns that this was already happening in prison in their evidence to the Transgender Equality Inquiry (see section on prisons below).

cuirderussie · 23/07/2017 19:49

venus yes Americans are particularly brainwashed in that polarised with us or against us kind of way, their culture wars are so toxic. So opponents of, say, TRAs could be extreme Christian groups you wouldn't be seen dead with as a good liberal. I've noticed that my contemporaries here (aged 40+ women in UK and Ireland) are very gender critical but my older US friends have just totally drunk the kool-aid in a barking mad kind of way. Educated intelligent people who really should know better, two of whom have let their kids have life altering hormone treatment Sad

IAmEatingACurry · 23/07/2017 19:50

I believe it is called progress.

It is? Confused

I'm a transwoman and I'm really struggling to see how this is progress tbh.

In fact I think it's vile and is just going to make life more difficult for us.

IAmEatingACurry · 23/07/2017 19:53

Of course it happens to women. It happened to her.

But I thought your friend is a transwoman? Confused

Transwomen aren't women. We're transwomen.

Personally I think it's transphobic to say that we are women because it implies that there is something wrong with being trans and we need to pretend to be something else in order to be accepted. Can we not just be accepted as ourselves, which is you know, trans?

PencilsInSpace · 23/07/2017 19:53

claritytobeclear if you want a long, navel gazing, philosophical discussion about nature/nurture, the origins of male violence and how we can build a post-patriarchal utopia, please start a different thread.

RIGHT NOW we are in danger of losing a whole raft of rights and protections that we have won so very recently because of the transagenda. If we don't deal with this shit effectively, while it's happening, we won't even have the words any more for the discussion you want to have.

IAmEatingACurry · 23/07/2017 19:56

You can't claim to be in support of trans rights whilst also supporting self identification. They conflict.

Let's just say I use the womens toilets because I'm too scared to use the mens as I've had issues using them before. If self identification comes in then what's stopping men then self identifying as women and assaulting me in there instead?

IAmEatingACurry · 23/07/2017 19:59

Transgender people having more rights won't lead to a higher rate of sexual predators.

What rights do I not currently have that this new law will bring me?

VestalVirgin · 23/07/2017 20:01

Let's just say I use the womens toilets because I'm too scared to use the mens as I've had issues using them before. If self identification comes in then what's stopping men then self identifying as women and assaulting me in there instead?

Well, nothing.

I wonder whether the trans allies who want to support your gender identity, but don't much care about your actual safety will be heard of again.

Transwomen acknowledging that transwomen aren't women usually causes the trans allies to mysteriously vanish.

PenelopeParmesan · 23/07/2017 20:06

I have a sporty daughter. Compared to her peers, other sporty girls, she does well in competitions etc.

When she is 18 she will have no chance of succeeding against someone with a male physique, no matter how they identify.

When I request a female doctor for an intimate procedure or examination, I'd like to think they will be female, not a man who feels like a woman.

When my vulnerable female patients wish for females to assist them in their personal care, I don't think it's fair to remove their rights to say so.

If my son grows up to be gender non conforming, I don't want him to be forced to 'transition' because he's not macho enough to be a man.

If I am arrested and searched, I don't want a biological male to search me.

If I choose a sexual relationship with a woman, I don't feel I should be branded a genital fetishist or a bigot for wanting a woman without a penis.

If I go to prison, I don't want to be held with people who can rape me with their penis.

There are reasons why sex segregation exists. Biology matters.

CuppaTeaAndAJammieDodger · 23/07/2017 20:19

It's like a Margaret Atwood novel.

A dispersed voice doesn't make much impact though. We need to come together, organise, and form one VERY loud voice.