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Gender Self Identity Law coming! MNQH and Mumsnetters: Time to pick a side

999 replies

AssignedMentalAtBirth · 23/07/2017 10:09

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40692782

This is going to happen unless we speak out now.

Other thread in feminist chat

Fence sitters everywhere, please read, be aware of what is coming

From the Times:
Tories promote the right to choose your own sex
Transgender reforms for birth certificates
Adults will be able to change their gender legally without a doctor’s diagnosis under government plans that will transform British society.
Men will be able to identify themselves as women — and women as men — and have their birth certificates altered to record their new gender.
Ministers plan to tear up the existing rules that mean people have to live for two years as their desired gender before they can officially change sex.
A consultation on the Gender Recognition Bill, to be published in the autumn, will also include proposals to scrap the requirement that people get a formal medical diagnosis of “gender dysphoria” before applying to switch gender.
Critics warned that allowing people in effect to “self-identify” as a member of the opposite sex, while maintaining the anatomy of their birth gender, would unleash a firestorm of legal cases over access to women-only hospital wards, prisons, lavatories, changing rooms and competitive sports.
Justine Greening, the minister for women and equalities, called the move to give more rights to transgender people the third great “step forward” after equality for women and the legalisation of same-sex marriage in 2013.
The announcement is timed to coincide with the 50th anniversary of the partial decriminalisation of homosexuality in 1967. Greening said ministers want to “streamline and demedicalise” gender change to make it easier for people to switch their identity legally.
In future people are expected to be required only to make a statutory declaration that they intend to live in the acquired gender until death — in line with arrangements already adopted in Ireland.
The consultation will address whether those whose gender is “non-binary” should also be able to define themselves as “X” on their birth certificates.
A separate consultation in Scotland will go further than England and Wales by recommending that “non-binary” people should be able to define themselves as “X” on passports. It will also propose a cut in the age at which people can change their gender from 18 to 16.
The plans will be controversial. Prominent feminists including Germaine Greer and Dame Jenni Murray, the presenter of Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour, have questioned whether men can become women even if they undergo a sex-change operation.
Stephanie Davies-Arai of Transgender Trend, a parents’ group, said: “This has huge implications for women. There will be legal cases. The most worrying thing is if any man can identify as a woman with no tests and gain access to spaces where women might be getting undressed or feel vulnerable — like women’s hospital wards, refuges and rape crisis centres — women will just stop going to these facilities.”
Self-identifying was recommended by a parliamentary committee last year chaired by the former cabinet minister Maria Miller and it has the backing of Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn.
Greening also announced the government will make it easier for gay men to give blood. At the moment men who have had sexual contact with other men are barred from donating for 12 months. That will be reduced to three months.

Ministers will launch a national survey of Britain’s estimated 1.5m LGBT people to help inform policy.
The education department has also announced £3m will be spent on “anti-homophobic and transphobic programmes”. Schools, including faith schools, will be required to include LGBT issues in relationships and sex education.
Greening, who is in a relationship with a woman, said: “This government is committed to building an inclusive society that works for everyone, no matter what their gender or sexuality.
“We will build on the significant progress we have made over the past 50 years, tackling some of the historic prejudices that still persist in our laws and giving LGBT people a real say on the issues affecting them.”
Ruth Hunt, chief executive of Stonewall, the lobbying organisation, welcomed the plans. “We need a simple process which isn’t medicalised, intrusive or demeaning,” she said.
The move will put the government on a collision course with some religious groups. Simon Calvert of the Christian Institute said: “It is worrying when the leaders of the main political parties are so out of touch with the concerns of ordinary people.
“Allowing men to self-identify as female without any medical diagnosis allows them to invade the privacy of women and girls.
“It’s time for a reality check. Some things can’t be changed. May and Corbyn want to elevate the principle of ‘gender self-declaration’. But it is wrong, it is anti-scientific and it is dangerous.”
A source who is close to Greening acknowledged that the proposed changes could be problematic. “That’s why we are going to have a consultation, so we can examine all the implications,” the source said.
A Scottish government spokeswoman said it hopes to have “new arrangements in place by 2020”.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
VestalVirgin · 23/07/2017 18:03

Oh, you meant the abortion. Aw, I really looked forward to becoming a Catholic priest in Ireland

But I guess the pope can veto it ...

catgirl1976 · 23/07/2017 18:04

I am particularly excited about being able to do the Cresta Run. (Before I take my Priestly vows of course)

BahHumbygge · 23/07/2017 18:06

Vestal, sorry for not being clear, I was replying to the second point about abortion in the ROI, not the priesthood Smile

VestalVirgin · 23/07/2017 18:09

Actually, the pope should be in favour of men with vulvas becoming priests. I mean, it would lower the rate of sexual abuse of children by priests quite a lot, without him having to do anything about the problem.

The downside would be that women would get to hold authority in church. But I guess he'd still be able to never promote the priests with vulvas, and instead promote the nuns with penises in the church hierarchy.

Atenco · 23/07/2017 18:13

I love the idea of turning it all on its head. Women priests, joining all male clubs and challenging the law of primogeniture

sticklebrix · 23/07/2017 18:13

Majora I'm glad that you are sticking around. It is helpful to have ideas challenged. As you say, echo chambers are rarely beneficial. I hope that you will be listening too.

Many, many of the posters here held your point of view until only recently. Myself included. Everything about identity politics crumbled when I gave it the slightest philosophical nudge. I felt like I had been deconverted.

I have a problem with being legally forced to compromise my safety and that of my daughters in a statistically-provable way. And I have a problem with ideology being presented as scientific fact with minimal research to support it.

VestalVirgin · 23/07/2017 18:16

I love the idea of turning it all on its head. Women priests, joining all male clubs and challenging the law of primogeniture

Yeah. Though feminism was close to abolishing those, anyway, so I am not sure challenging it will be enough.

It certainly will be fun, though!

VestalVirgin · 23/07/2017 18:20

Many, many of the posters here held your point of view until only recently. Myself included. Everything about identity politics crumbled when I gave it the slightest philosophical nudge.

Can you recall how you were able to be completely convinced of something so brittle?

It is a mystery to me how people deal with the cognitive dissonance.Almost supernatural.

The closest I ever came to being a trans supporter was not much caring about the whole thing and assuming that transwomen would respect women's spaces despite calling themselves women and asking for female pronouns.

The moment it was brought to my attention they claimed to literally BE women, they lost my support.

SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed · 23/07/2017 18:26

'The blatant disregard for science here is terrifying and potentially extremely dangerous.'

I couldn't agree more! This is just another example of the idea that there are no facts, no scientific or academic reality, that everything is just a matter of opinion and all opinions are equally valid. It is very, very frightening.

SpartacusSaiman · 23/07/2017 18:27

My moment was womens sports. Or more accurately girls sports.

Both me and dd are kick boxers. I regularly fight men in training. It doesnt phase me.

Dd fights boys at training. She is fine. But in competition its a lot more brutal. Our sensei was talking about Fallon Fox (i think) and mma fighter who used to be a man and now a woman had fought several women before finding out it was biologically a man.

A biologocal male got in the ring and knocked 7 shades of shit out of a woman. Anyeay we discussed what would happen if this happen in kick boxing in amateur leagues. As it hapoens my sensei said he would drop leagues that we fight in. Considering we have several world champions, its not a small thing for those leagues.

Before that it never entered my head that some transwomen would even think was ok. Or want to remove womens rights.

Now I know better.

SpartacusSaiman · 23/07/2017 18:29

Oh and i was convinces becauee the transwomen i know just wanted to get on with their lives WITHOUT removing womens rights or taling their spaces.

Sallystyle · 23/07/2017 18:29

I feel sick to my stomach.

I wanted to post about it on FB but know quite a few people who would think this is an amazing thing and I'm noting but a closed minded bigot.

Lifeofpies · 23/07/2017 18:33

Just adding my voice of support. I'm horrified by this.

BMacklin · 23/07/2017 18:34

Yes u2 me too. I've had to come away from it for a while because it seemed so crazy and I was getting upset.

sidesplittinglol · 23/07/2017 18:34

* DD says if it comes in, she's going to demand to be reregistered as "rabbit gender". (She's 16 for context). She might be onto something there. Either all delusions and nonsenses should be officially recognised or we should stick to recording biological sex and let everyone live their lives as eccentrically as they wish.*

I would like to be recognised as the hulk gender please.

M0stlyBowlingHedgehog · 23/07/2017 18:40

Majora, I hope you don't mind me asking, but what is it that makes you feel trans inside? I'm presuming from your chosen pronouns of they/their that you are non-binary or agender (forgive me if you said which already - I may have missed it in a fast moving thread).

You see, I've never felt like a woman. I am a woman - I have ovaries, a uterus, breasts, I hit my female biology head on in puberty when I discovered periods hurt like hell, I've been pregnant, I've breast fed. But as for inside my head - that's just me. It's not "gendered" because I think of gender as a social construct. Some (perhaps most) of the stuff I'm interested in fits what society regards as malculine sex-role stereotypes (I'm a scientist in the maths/physics end of stem, I can fix cars, I played football for years, I hardly ever wear makeup, I'm happiest when sufficiently far away from social judgement to let my leg and armpit hair grow to its full hirsuite glory), but I do do some things society deems feminine (dress making, cake baking, knitting). I've always thought the problem lay with society, not me, hence I'm happy to make the biological statement "I am a woman", while saying that society's expectations about how I should dress, behave, feel, what activities I should undertake on the basis of me being a woman are for the most part a crock of shit.

So it interests me that someone would in effect say "I have female biology but I'm not a woman". Forgive me for being nosy, but I'm interested in why you'd make that further move, rather than simply saying as I have "society's sanctioned sex stereotypes are a crock of shit".

BMacklin · 23/07/2017 18:40

And no I can't say anything publicly either as I know two trans men (one family one friend) and I don't want to deal with the inevitable fall out that would happen from family and friends. I'm already at loggerheads with my sister and I'm desperately trying to get her to understand how this is damaging to women.

claritytobeclear · 23/07/2017 18:42

Just take all the stereotyping and identity out of this. Given that 98% of sexual offences in the UK are committed by men, it is sensible, evidence-based policy. Of course, as the offences committed by sex-offending transwomen start being reported/legally defined as committed by women, it will start to tip the scales & policy will inevitably shift. Whichever way you look at it, we are screwed.

So do people think this statistically proven phenomenon is due to men's biology or men conforming socially constructed gender stereotypes?

I think it is an important question if we are seeking to be liberated from gender stereotypes. If people believe it is down to men's biology, this minimises their personal responsibility for crimes. If we believe this is due to socially constructed gender stereotypes how can we best protect people who do not conform to them? I mean surely this is a responsibility also?

Pretending that men are not violent in the hopes that men will get the message and stop being violent is incredibly daft.

If you don't want to sex segregate a space that was not sex segregated previously (for example public transport) despite an increase in male violence, then you have to increase security (armed female police officers) to prevent men from being violent there.

And I see no reason whatsoever to not sex segregate spaces that do not only afford safety, but also privacy - such as bathrooms, showes, changing rooms. Women don't want men they know are safe to be around in such spaces, and much less do we want male strangers there.

I'm not pretending men are not violent. At all. I fully acknowledge the need for sexually segregated spaces whilst men statistically are more likely to abuse women than women are.

I was more thinking how we can best socialise young men and women to be liberated from gender stereotypes without perpetuating the same stereotypes we are seeking to eradicate.

BMacklin · 23/07/2017 18:45

I was more thinking how we can best socialise young men and women to be liberated from gender stereotypes without perpetuating the same stereotypes we are seeking to eradicate.

Well quite. I would argue transgender reinforces gender stereotypes.

VestalVirgin · 23/07/2017 18:46

I was more thinking how we can best socialise young men and women to be liberated from gender stereotypes without perpetuating the same stereotypes we are seeking to eradicate.

Easy. Abolish gender, and state that both sexes need privacy from the other sex and that is what we have sex segregated spaces for. We wouldn't even have to talk about male violence if women's desire for privacy was respected.

olliegarchy99 · 23/07/2017 18:49

I personally do not like 38degrees petitions (and the wording is not great)
Is there a government petition on this proposal ? - I would gladly sign that.

sticklebrix · 23/07/2017 18:50

Can you recall how you were able to be completely convinced of something so brittle?

You know, I'm not sure. Slow creep, I think. And a natural inclination to stick up for persecuted minorities. Not really reading around what I was hearing everywhere. And being distant from feminism for many years when I had small kids.

sticklebrix · 23/07/2017 18:51

vestal I felt like I'd woken up in a parallel universe when I finally reconnected with feminism.

SpartacusSaiman · 23/07/2017 18:53

Transgender people do not want gender abolishing.

They can not change sex.

I would love gender to be abolished. But sex will never be abolished and i dont want it to me.

While i would like to see an end to male violence. I would like to see that come from other men as well. Rather than telling women who are worried avout trans-issues that its their job to fix men as well.

claritytobeclear · 23/07/2017 18:54

Vestal , so, with gender abolished, short of a medical /birth /identifying certificate, or examination, how can you legitimately check people are the sex they say they are, on a day to day basis?

Surely if we made unisex places, with good provision for personal privacy, more safe, it would be simpler? Or am I missing something? I am thinking, if gender is abolished, privacy matters much less.

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