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Gender Self Identity Law coming! MNQH and Mumsnetters: Time to pick a side

999 replies

AssignedMentalAtBirth · 23/07/2017 10:09

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40692782

This is going to happen unless we speak out now.

Other thread in feminist chat

Fence sitters everywhere, please read, be aware of what is coming

From the Times:
Tories promote the right to choose your own sex
Transgender reforms for birth certificates
Adults will be able to change their gender legally without a doctor’s diagnosis under government plans that will transform British society.
Men will be able to identify themselves as women — and women as men — and have their birth certificates altered to record their new gender.
Ministers plan to tear up the existing rules that mean people have to live for two years as their desired gender before they can officially change sex.
A consultation on the Gender Recognition Bill, to be published in the autumn, will also include proposals to scrap the requirement that people get a formal medical diagnosis of “gender dysphoria” before applying to switch gender.
Critics warned that allowing people in effect to “self-identify” as a member of the opposite sex, while maintaining the anatomy of their birth gender, would unleash a firestorm of legal cases over access to women-only hospital wards, prisons, lavatories, changing rooms and competitive sports.
Justine Greening, the minister for women and equalities, called the move to give more rights to transgender people the third great “step forward” after equality for women and the legalisation of same-sex marriage in 2013.
The announcement is timed to coincide with the 50th anniversary of the partial decriminalisation of homosexuality in 1967. Greening said ministers want to “streamline and demedicalise” gender change to make it easier for people to switch their identity legally.
In future people are expected to be required only to make a statutory declaration that they intend to live in the acquired gender until death — in line with arrangements already adopted in Ireland.
The consultation will address whether those whose gender is “non-binary” should also be able to define themselves as “X” on their birth certificates.
A separate consultation in Scotland will go further than England and Wales by recommending that “non-binary” people should be able to define themselves as “X” on passports. It will also propose a cut in the age at which people can change their gender from 18 to 16.
The plans will be controversial. Prominent feminists including Germaine Greer and Dame Jenni Murray, the presenter of Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour, have questioned whether men can become women even if they undergo a sex-change operation.
Stephanie Davies-Arai of Transgender Trend, a parents’ group, said: “This has huge implications for women. There will be legal cases. The most worrying thing is if any man can identify as a woman with no tests and gain access to spaces where women might be getting undressed or feel vulnerable — like women’s hospital wards, refuges and rape crisis centres — women will just stop going to these facilities.”
Self-identifying was recommended by a parliamentary committee last year chaired by the former cabinet minister Maria Miller and it has the backing of Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn.
Greening also announced the government will make it easier for gay men to give blood. At the moment men who have had sexual contact with other men are barred from donating for 12 months. That will be reduced to three months.

Ministers will launch a national survey of Britain’s estimated 1.5m LGBT people to help inform policy.
The education department has also announced £3m will be spent on “anti-homophobic and transphobic programmes”. Schools, including faith schools, will be required to include LGBT issues in relationships and sex education.
Greening, who is in a relationship with a woman, said: “This government is committed to building an inclusive society that works for everyone, no matter what their gender or sexuality.
“We will build on the significant progress we have made over the past 50 years, tackling some of the historic prejudices that still persist in our laws and giving LGBT people a real say on the issues affecting them.”
Ruth Hunt, chief executive of Stonewall, the lobbying organisation, welcomed the plans. “We need a simple process which isn’t medicalised, intrusive or demeaning,” she said.
The move will put the government on a collision course with some religious groups. Simon Calvert of the Christian Institute said: “It is worrying when the leaders of the main political parties are so out of touch with the concerns of ordinary people.
“Allowing men to self-identify as female without any medical diagnosis allows them to invade the privacy of women and girls.
“It’s time for a reality check. Some things can’t be changed. May and Corbyn want to elevate the principle of ‘gender self-declaration’. But it is wrong, it is anti-scientific and it is dangerous.”
A source who is close to Greening acknowledged that the proposed changes could be problematic. “That’s why we are going to have a consultation, so we can examine all the implications,” the source said.
A Scottish government spokeswoman said it hopes to have “new arrangements in place by 2020”.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
SpartacusSaiman · 23/07/2017 17:16

I wonder if majoras trans woman friend would be happy with Danielle Mustcato being in the womens toilets with her?

claritytobeclear · 23/07/2017 17:17

Biology matters

Assigned, so are you saying biological sex does determine more characteristics than simply different reproductive organs?

Because of male violence against women?

I get this, but then how do you reconcile gender being a social construct? So if men (genuinely) did not identify with gender perceptions of their sex they surely would not be dangerous?

Don't get me wrong, I understand the need for women being safe. Just trying to understand the reasoning behind the arguments.

AssassinatedBeauty · 23/07/2017 17:17

Majora I don't think that's correct. My understanding was that once you have had a gender change, your NHS records are sealed and your new gender is recorded with no reference to your old gender. So a trans woman would be offered a cervical smear, but never a prostate exam and so on.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 23/07/2017 17:22

Socialisation problems:

Males - brought up to believe they can't show/discuss emotion, violence is normal, women are there to be used sexually and to serve the men. Obviously not all men end up like that, but a lot do.

Women - brought up to believe that they have to look after everyone else, that unwanted sexual attention is probably their own fault and yet (at the same time) so much of their value comes from their appearance.

Why aren't we focussing on the toxic gender roles? Why are men just standing back and leaving it to us to challenge this nonsense?

deckoff · 23/07/2017 17:25

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Datun · 23/07/2017 17:25

I don't see how saying 'trans women exist' is centering them in feminism. It's just asking/demanding them to be included, because they exist.

No-one is stopping transwomen fighting for feminism. Let them march, campaign, donate, volunteer.

But that is not the issue. They're not interested in those things. They want the right to be called feminists, never the job. They can do that job whenever they want!

Instead they abuse women, threaten them, say they are better feminists.

They insist that female biology is, by its nature, cissexist And that abortion is a privilege.

Trans-feminism centres men.

They don't want to be feminists, they want the name, because it is defiantly and indisputably female.

Just like lesbian, mother, breastfeeding.

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe2726 · 23/07/2017 17:26

Thanks for the petition link at 1537, DJBaggySmalls, I've signed. This is infuriating and terrifying.

user1487175389 · 23/07/2017 17:30

I would implore anyone who hasn't yet 'gone public' with their stance on this to do so on social media. I held my breath and did this recently and although I was dreading the fallout, it simply hasn't happened. Most transactivist sympathisers won't attempt to engage you in argument because they know they haven't really got a leg to stand on. And those that do are easily out-argued. I also suspect I may be winning one or two people over with my calm, patient arguments.

And as lots of women privately fall into the 'B' category in LGBTQ (which, remember is about attraction, not how many women you've slept with) we should definitely attempt to make ourselves heard in the consultation.

VestalVirgin · 23/07/2017 17:33

I wonder if majoras trans woman friend would be happy with Danielle Mustcato being in the womens toilets with her?

Probably not, unless this person is also a "transwoman" a la Muscato, who is happy to have and keep a penis. In which case I don't think he would have had any problems in the men's toilet, though ... so probably not.

But Majora is misogynist enough to also want to throw transwomen under the bus, apparently, rather than having to acknowledge that transwomen are not, and will never be, women.

Trans allies are very good at protecting and validating their trans friends' precious identities. Those identities are more important than the person's actual body, though.

A transwoman's body would be safer in a space set aside for the use of transwomen who actually look somewhat like women, and where random males cannot identify in.
But that can never be, as it would invalidate their precious identities. So, male access to women's spaces, it is. Which makes transwomen's bodies not one bit safer, but who cares?

It is like transmen and female non-binaries. They hate, hate, hate feminists and want feminist to die.

Men who rape transmen, though? Those are okay. Sure, they rape and murder, but as long as they use the transman's preferred pronouns, I suppose that's okay.

It is a bit like religious people who are more concerned about their souls than about their bodies.

Though admittedly, I have yet to meet a religious person who gets very involved in hating people who tempt her to sin and thus threaten her immortal soul, while readily forgiving those who'd just kill her body.
Most religious people prioritize the safety of their body. With the possible exception of Jehovah's Witnesses, but even they don't threaten medical professionals who offer blood transfusions with rape and murder.

The transcult is the only cult where the gendered soul is more important than the body for almost all believers.

SpaghettiAndMeatballs · 23/07/2017 17:34

A penis is essentially the same tissue as a clitoris, after all

Well, so's my nose then...

Clitorises and penises are different organs - a clitoris isn't just an underdeveloped penis for goodness sake.

I, too, think anyone can wear what they like, have whatever hobbies they like, but denying the material reality of sex is stupid. Sticking your fingers in your ears, and saying lalalalalaaa - getting cosmetic surgery, none of these things can change it and pretending otherwise, except as a last resort for people with body dysmorphia is foolish and dangerous (for those people as well)

VestalVirgin · 23/07/2017 17:37

Why aren't we focussing on the toxic gender roles? Why are men just standing back and leaving it to us to challenge this nonsense?

Because they aren't the ones who are harmed.

The trans ideology will result in any and all legal protections women fought long and hard for being stripped away. Things will return to before the days of the suffragettes. If we are lucky, we get to keep our voting fights, but I wouldn't count on it. They can call us uterus-havers "hysteric" and insist we have to have a hysterectomy to get a right to vote.

And we will have to fight the whole fight all over again.

It is a win for males, all in all. At least for leftist males who want women to be shared property of all males.

Conservative males would like to keep their female property private, so there's a bit of opposition from them.

But they'll probably just shrug it off and lock their female chattel at home when the changes are made.
Who needs women's public toilets and showers and changing rooms, after all, if women aren't allowed ot leave the house, anyway?

sleighbellend · 23/07/2017 17:40

But non-binary is only real in the sense that everybody is non-binary. No-one is 100% male or female stereotype.

I've yet to see a definition of non-binary/gender fluid that couldn't be replaced with 'having a personality'. When it's used in a This Is My Identity sense, nine times out of ten, it's males looking for an easy way to call women cunts on twitter without getting called out for it, or it's a pomo rehash of 'I'm not like other girls!'

illegitimateMortificadospawn · 23/07/2017 17:40

Sexual segregation for the purpose of creating a 'safe space', surely, perpetuates sexual stereotypes. It promotes the concept that men are, somehow, biologically pre-disposed to abuse which could be used, by some, to diminish their responsibility.

Just take all the stereotyping and identity out of this. Given that 98% of sexual offences in the UK are committed by men, it is sensible, evidence-based policy. Of course, as the offences committed by sex-offending transwomen start being reported/legally defined as committed by women, it will start to tip the scales & policy will inevitably shift. Whichever way you look at it, we are screwed.

dangermouseisace · 23/07/2017 17:43

they've tried a .gov petition and it gets kicked out every time for not conforming with their criteria.

Here's the 38 degrees one again.

you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/no-to-the-erasure-of-women-and-abolition-of-our-spaces

catgirl1976 · 23/07/2017 17:44

I wonder if, given women are never listened to we need to get the menz on board in a big way?

I'm thinking if we all write to the Masons, male only golf and cricket clubs, male only private clubs and so on - the real bastions of white, male privelge, those sort of places saying

"Hello, I am really looking forward to the new gender identity laws coming in. As soon as they do I will be identifying as a man, so could you send me the membership forms in advance so I can get in early as I imagine you'll be deluged by similar applications once this goes ahead.

PS - is it ok to breastfeed in the clubhouse? I'm assuming it will be otherwise I think it would discriminate against me. Although I do identify as a man and therefore, under the new rules, am one legally and can join your lovely club, I've recently given birth and will be feeding little Oliver whilst I'm attending. Thanks in advance and looking forward to joining"

VestalVirgin · 23/07/2017 17:46

Just take all the stereotyping and identity out of this. Given that 98% of sexual offences in the UK are committed by men, it is sensible, evidence-based policy.

This.

Pretending that men are not violent in the hopes that men will get the message and stop being violent is incredibly daft.

If you don't want to sex segregate a space that was not sex segregated previously (for example public transport) despite an increase in male violence, then you have to increase security (armed female police officers) to prevent men from being violent there.

And I see no reason whatsoever to not sex segregate spaces that do not only afford safety, but also privacy - such as bathrooms, showes, changing rooms. Women don't want men they know are safe to be around in such spaces, and much less do we want male strangers there.

catgirl1976 · 23/07/2017 17:52

Also - can I become a Roman Catholic Priest now?

And...I have no idea how the abortion law in NI is written, but if it specifically says that it is illegal for a woman to have an abortion, would that mean it's not illegal for a man to have one? That way, any women in NI who find themselves with an unwanted pregnancy could identify as a man and have a termination without fear of criminal consequence.

Datun · 23/07/2017 17:57

A penis is essentially the same tissue as a clitoris, after all

Except clitorises have double the amount of nerve endings the penis does.

Transwomen after surgery are very upset that they can't orgasm the way a woman can. And that furiously stabbing at the tiny bit of penis head that is left doesn't work.

BahHumbygge · 23/07/2017 17:57

Catgirl, I believe that is actually the case in the Republic of Ireland Wink

GahBuggerit · 23/07/2017 17:59

Catgirl - loving that idea. Genuinely.

catgirl1976 · 23/07/2017 18:01

Ha. I thought it might be written that way as it would make sense to specify women. There must be more stuff like that but I like the idea of this nonsense being of some benefit to some women somewhere.

Datun · 23/07/2017 18:02

catgirl1976

As far as I know, the woman has no agency whatsoever in the legality of an abortion. It is the doctors who sign off on it. It's not so much as a woman's right to abortion, it's the right of the doctors who agree to it.

So, once again, gender politics doesn't help women at all, however they identify.

VestalVirgin · 23/07/2017 18:02

That way, any women in NI who find themselves with an unwanted pregnancy could identify as a man and have a termination without fear of criminal consequence.

Won't help much if there aren't any clinics who'd perform abortions, though.

I rather suspect they'll declare the ban on abortions totally okay and not at all sexist, since, after all, all genders can have unwanted pregnancies.

BahHumbygge, really? Hm, I never really considered that career path, but it is a good option for people who want to be celibate. "Priest" sounds so much better than "nun" or "spinster", doesn't it?

RunningWild12 · 23/07/2017 18:03

Does anyone work in/involved with/know someone in women's sporting bodies? I cannot believe that they can just stand back and let this happen. What's the point in This Girl Can campaign if it becomes This Boy says he is a Girl so Can take your place on the team.

catgirl1976 · 23/07/2017 18:03

Or at the very least waking up the policy makers to what an unimaginable can of legal worms and confusion this would open